Animation Source Forums

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but honestly it bothers me and everyone who makes "renders" should read this link:
This one right here. On dA. (click here)

This is the same as what you people here on AS do, and this is why I loathe renders so much.
Akreon said it better than I can.
And y'all should listen.

You said it's a theft, but basically, making collages, wallpapers and graphics using screenshots is the same thievery as "renders"(which I alway called "recolours" before, it is more fitting). I do not consider recoloring as a "full art", but in fact it DOES require some artistic skill, as everything else. There are some relly good ones and people take their time and skills to make them, just as every other art or graphic. I will not post examples. Just browse "Esca" or "Hecate" in image seach...
Like I said they are not something to be fully considered as my own art and I will never post my recolours on Deviantart. They are not originally mine, but hey, they are fun to make. If thee' nothing wrong with avatars, banners and wallpapers using movie screenshots, I see nothing wrong in recolours from movie screenshots too.
However I agree on the fact that they should not be posted on ART sites and they shouldn't be the only thing to focus about.

Technically, this entire site is against the law. But there's always been things they seem to allow and things they don't.
Noticed at conventions people sell fanart they drew themselves and it's only really when they start making a LOT of money the companies stop them? But, if people take official images and try selling them they get quite upset.
People still do, especially at anime cons, but in general it's far more frowned upon than your own unique art.

People make the excuse "Well I can't draw" - Yes you can. No one said it has to be amazing.
Another one is "Well it's good practice" - No it isn't. I would know, when I was 12-14 I traced Disney colouring books because I thought it'd make me better at drawing - it didn't. I only got better when I stopped tracing them.
Renders are tracing. No matter how you spin it and it's not uncommon for people who call themselves "render artists" to frown upon people who trace despite the fact they're doing the exact same thing.
And people still get huffy about people "stealing" their renders, which is just a bit ridiculous.

Of the people you mentioned, Hecate is already a good artist in her own right. She can draw without "rendering".
(I don't know about Esca as I don't know them and the search feature didn't give me anything.)

Every argument I've ever seen /for/ rendering is born of people not seeing improvement in their actual art immediately, but rendering does not teach you how to draw. It teaches you how to colour things, but anatomy will not improve and it's anatomy that makes a drawing. The best you'll be able to do is copy the official art.
If people spent as much time practicing how to actually draw as they did recolouring screenshots they'd find they'd actually start learning.
Don't want to put in the time - fine. No one says you HAVE to, but renders are not art.

I'm 50/50 on this whole rendering thing. I hate most renders, but I don't have an issue with people like Hecate for instance. People like her put effort into their renders, and modify the style and poses. I can't express how much I hate seeing the same freakn' poses everywhere. But on the other hand, most renders are just downright awful. Simple as use the paint bucket tool. Oh yes, and don't forget that these kids don't have tablets, so they use a mouse with a 10 or larger size brush and blotch over areas like Balto's eye brows. Stunning... I know not everyone has access to a tablet, but if you're going to use a mouse, at least take advantage of the tools available to you. Even if you're using paint, there are tools that can help with that. So there really is no excuse for making a bad render, especially if you're using Gimp or Photoshop.

I've also seen members say they render because they "can't" draw. That could be true, they may not have talent, but like you said, they don't have to be super artists either. I personally think that kids are just lazy, so they use these as excuses.

I agree with Mighty and Sakujo. Renders are okay with me as long as they are done creatively, neatly, and with sweat and tears. Not done on Paint in like 2 minutes.

I also think rendering and tracing do help with drawing a bit. It's fine to do it at first just to get certain shapes down, but you can't just keep tracing things until you're the best artist in the world. Tracing may give you a little guide line, but to be a good artist, you have to do your own thing sooner or later. You will get better with practice. It took me more than 4 years just to make drawings that actually could compare to good artists (of course if you don't think so, that's fine with me. Everyone's got an opinion.)

And isn't that kind of the rule for making images anyway? No bad renders allowed? Or was that rule taken down?

Good luck with that.
Everyone's so busy moaning about how "unfair and mean!!" people are being and throwing around "if you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all!! It should be a rule!" that no one cares.

Exactly that.

What bothers ME about that problem you just mentioned is that, in practically the same "breath" as one of those people (either a moderator or some friend of the person being commented to, or one of those self-styled "White Knights"), we get castigated for not giving these kiddies "advice" and "help" or being "more supportive". So basically the idea here is this: if these people remain lousy at rendering or even art of their own ( ), it's OUR fault. We didn't teach them!

Didn't you know, UK, that your purpose here is to teach the kiddies who want to gain popularity and attention by milking off of the real fan artists, and trying to appear as budding ones themselves? Oh, you didn't? Surely! I mean, if you are not fulfilling your responsibility as an established fan artist and member, then what the beejeezus are you DOING here??

'Eeeyyyyyy none of that Mister!
I /tried/ the teaching thing, most of those I talked to and shared tips with didn't like the idea of doing it properly and gave up without even trying, and it's no longer worth my time when I visit other sites where the people (of the same age range often) are quite happy to listen and practice on their own without tracing screenshots.

I'm just repeating what I've heard time and again when I've expressed an honest and direct opinion on fan creations. Heh.

That's just rude. Rendering is the same kind of "art theft" as editing an image and photo manipulation (pretty much like Sakujo said). Granted, rendering isn't very original, but it does take some level of artistic skill to do it. Tracing things on the computer isn't as easy as it looks, and not just everyone can do it. When someone calls the render theirs and copyrights it, that's where I cross the line (that's why I've never put a copyright on anything that wasn't purely my own work, including graphics). But I think it's a bit ignorant to bash renders entirely. Not everyone is an amazing artist, and not everyone can draw on their own. Some people need help and so they render or use linearts instead. That's pretty much what they're for.

Whom are you addressing here, Moki?

Moki, you said the same thing I've been saying for a long time. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Really, guys, you have no idea how hard it is drawing on the computer or drawing in general. Some people go their whole lives and still can't grasp it.

Stop judging others. How would you feel if someone did the same thing to you? Then again, you probably don't care right? Let's get something straight, a lot of people here do, ESPECIALLY the young ones you bash because they're not perfectionists. That does no one any good.

Examine your own hearts and past works before you go criticizing and in some cases, bullying others.

@JC: I'm addressing everyone who has the nerve to say that renders shouldn't be allowed because people need to 'do things themselves' or 'draw on their own'. Because not everyone can draw, period.

@Brown Wolf: Thanks goodness someone agrees!

Give me a freaking break with that baloney. Criticism is most definitely NOT equivalent to bullying. And therein lay the source of your conflict (and one or two other mods' conflict) with so many members, not the least of which include myself, Sakujo, and MightyBalto1925 -- you're very apparent inability to see any criticism as anything but bullying. To an intelligent mind, it doesn't wash. And it's getting OLD.

You cannot force people to think what YOU believe they ought to think, or simply to keep their mouths shut because you don't happen to like the fact that they are being critical. You are not the "thought police", with the power to enforce a certain way of thinking and posting. You are a moderator, with an obligation to monitor and enforce the rules of this site. And having just carefully scrutinized the current rules set on this ENTIRE site, as I have done before whenever this matter raises it's ugly head, I can still find no verbiage to the effect of (or which literally says):





The internal and external machinations of a very small and narrow-minded set of Animation Source members, to achieve such, notwithstanding of course.


And not everyone should. There are skilled fan artists...skilled to varying degrees, but skilled nevertheless. In spite of all-inclusive, coddling and socialistic thinking ("there are no failures"), the truth of the matter is that not everyone can be something just because they'd like to be, or because the staff of the site they are plying very bad works upon (or, worse, alteration of material owned by Universal Studios. To which I agree with UKthewhitewolf as being unabashed THEFT) doesn't do much, if anything, about it. In real life, outside of home and school, there are those who succeed to varying degrees, and those who fail to varying degrees. Not everyone gets to, for example, be a radio disk jockey in a professional FM radio station simply because they happen to have some music CDs and want to "try it". They need the skills set, and they need to PROVE that to a program director when going for such a job. Not everyone can be the proverbial "fifth-floor" corporate executive in a major corporation just because they think it'd be cool to have that big desk, the high-backed, reclining and swiveling office chair, their own personal secretary, their own private parking space and a bank of windows with a great view. They need to have acquired at least a masters degree in business management and have several years of experience at low and then mid-level management before they can enjoy the perks of being a big time exec.

You pay your dues and you work hard. You don't get in at the ground level. How does that apply here? Simple: as any fan artist would say: "practice, practice, practice". And "practice makes perfect". Aaaaand "create your own material" (blank line arts are good, I think, for practice. But a potential fan artist DOESN'T improve by playing "coloring book". That is the arena of a child. Not a person who wants to be considered a serious and/or respected fan artist). If they can't do those things, then to a sensible mind they shouldn't attempt it...and maybe should pursue some other avenues. Maybe fan fiction. Or videos. Or crochet. lol

I had presumed this was all very obvious. Even to me, who isn't a fan artist (but has experience from college in art appreciation and analysis).


I refer you to my response to Moki Hunter just above...

Wrong.
Photomanipulation is done using royalty free images. Photographs which have been licensed under a "Creative Commons" license which means people can use them providing they abide by the rules set by which CC license they're listed under.
(For example: Some allow free use with no credit, some allow free use but must be credited & some allow free use but NOT for commercial purposes.)

Screenshots from movies by Disney, Universal or any other big name film company are NOT listed under a CC license NOR are they Royalty Free. They are the sole property of the company.
A fun fact about copyright: Someone who holds copyright over something MUST protect their copyright or else Copyright law states it renders their claim void and the copyrighted material becomes Public Domain.
Just because companies like Disney & Universal don't stamp out every single case of fan art or "rendering" they come across (honestly, think how much that would cost them in legal fees, even for a company as big as they are) doesn't mean they WON'T should they feel the need.



I'd like to counter all of that.
Tracing things on the computer IS something just anyone can learn to do. Depending on which tools or programs they use and how quickly they pick it up takes differing amounts of time, but anyone can do it.
I've sat and watched people who've had no previous experience doing such sit there and do it. Not to the level some people can (making it look like it was straight out of the movie) but they can to the same level as many members of AS can.

We KNOW not everyone is an amazing artist.
(JC is not even a fan artist in the drawing sense, he just appreciates the work people do, which is just as important honestly. He found another way of getting his creativity out - writing. Which he is very good at.)
I was most certainly NOT a good artist when I joined AS. I thought I was, but as soon as I joined and realized there are people far better than me, I worked at improving.

Here, this image is from July 2006, not long after I joined AS.

When I drew it, I thought it was THE best fox drawing in the history of ever.
However, I was given critique by other people - artists and non artists - and they told it was okay but needed improvement. My very first reaction was one of "WHAT!? This is the best I can do! It IS good!!" and then it dawned on me they were right, I was wrong, I could practice more and do better.

Since then I have drawn SOMETHING almost every single day of my life.
In the past 6 years, I estimate in total 3-4 weeks worth of days I didn't draw a single thing.
Most of it looks horrible. A lot of it I will never show online, even more I will never show anyone, but it was the process of doing it and KEEPING doing it that helped me improve.
Every step of the way advice from other people on what I can do to improve helped me - not hindered - helped.
Had it not been for the people on BS who first gave me advice and told me to keep working I'd likely have not even started improving for a much longer time.

Because of that, I can now draw better.
This is from 2009;

While not great, it's a VAST improvement on 2006.
This is from December time 2011 to February 2012;

And again - improvement.
My work with light and shadow and colour is all getting better and again - practice and critique are to thank for it.

It can be done.
NO ONE says your drawings MUST be absolutely amazing, just look at the last page of my BS gallery and see what those look like. They weren't rejected or deactivated for being bad.
Everyone who goes on about this stuff knows everyone must start somewhere, we just wish people on AS would actually start and stop copping out on renders.

(And as a final note which I forgot - Renders are not the same as linearts. Linearts have been created specifically for people to colour and that is what they are intended for. Rendering an official image from a movie is not, as I explained in the bit about photomanipulations.)