Why are audiences so soft on Summer action films?

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:42 pm

If you've hung around the movie forums on here a lot, you'll know that I have openly despised Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. My reasons have included poor plot, bad script, awful acting, offensive stereotypes and messy action scenes. When I mention these things to supporters of the film, they acknowledge them, but they say that you shouldn't expect anything more than eye candy out of a movie like this.

My question is "why?" If you spend more than $200 million on a film, you have more than enough resources to make sure everything is up to snuff. The problem is that instead of spending the money on things that matter like script, the studio spends most of it on things that will attract outside audiences like effects and marketing in hopes that they can make enough money to justify their massive budget.

You see, in movies like Transformers 2 and the upcoming G.I. Joe: Rise of Cobra, the actual quality of the film is the least important part of the equation. The studio spends lots of money on effects and hyping the movie up that it is seen in the public eye as a "must see". The reasons people see these movies isn't because they like them, it's because they feel that they will be left on the outside looking in if they don't.

Now we get to the point I previously touched on, the one that confuses even me. Why are people willing to lower their standards just because the movie is a Summer blockbuster? The people I talk to seem to know how awful the movie is, but say things like: "Did you really expect a story out of this movie?" Why should I have any reason not to? They had all the things they needed to make a good movie, so why expect anything less? Not only that, but we had two great movies last year that made buckets of cash (Iron Man and The Dark Knight), so shouldn't the public have enough examples to set some kind of standard by now?

Ask yourself this coming out of a movie. Thirty years from now, when the special effects look cheap and dated, will the stand-alone film have enough merit to hold up? That's how I see it, anyway.

Swords of the Wolves · **Posted:** Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:27 pm

To be honest, all the movie companies really care about is getting money. The reason why people want to see those movies isn't necessarily because they think they'll be left out if they don't, but more because they want to see gunfights, stuff blowing up, epic battle, and people killing other people in spectacular fashions. You'd be surprised at how many people don't care a lot about the plot and just want to see the big fights. Heck, a lot of people who saw "Lord of the Rings" probably only watched it so they could see epic swordfights, to give you an idea, and didn't pay a lot of attention to the plot (and then there were a lot of girls who went in to the movie just so they'd see Orlando Bloom, but that's another matter entirely). That said, the easiest way to get the lowest common denominator to watch action movies is to have a bunch of things blow up or have really long and intense fight sequences.

I know of the lowest common denominator, and I must say, it's not pretty. I mean, sure, Transformers 2 won't be as well-remembered as movies like The Dark Knight, but really, what do audiences care? They're just there to see the immense violence that they otherwise wouldn't be exposed to. In the minds of the most common audience members, the only part of the script that does matter is how the action sequences play out. (I mean, why do you think movies like Transformers 2 win so many MTV Awards?)

Bottom line is this:

Lowest common denominator:

-Wants lots of action
-Script not as important

One level above:

-Wants action
-Script somewhat important

Two levels above:

-Wants action
-Wants a decent script to tie it together

Three or more levels above:

-Action is important, but not at the cost of a decent script
-Script must be detailed and very well thought-up.

It's all really a matter of which level they want to cater to. As the level goes up, the more likely it is that a movie will make less money, as each level may attract less of the lowest common denominator.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:24 pm

Most of what you're saying is true, but a few things still leave me wondering. People all of a sudden think that being a Summer action movie gives a movie a license to be bad as long as lots of stuff blows up. When you spend $200 million on a movie, you have all the resources in the world to make the movie good. Like in Transformers 2, the mythology of Transformers could allow them to make a movie about the Autobots and Decepticon's ancient war and weaved a very interesting story around it, while, at the same time, making room for some epic large scale battles (not Michael Bay's battles where all anything does is blow up or crash into something with the camera guy hopped up on his hundreth Mountain Dew). Instead, we get Shia (however the Hell you spell his last name) trying to hook up with a female lead so bland and lifeless that they could have replaced her with a Macy's dummy.

Also, after the public saw movies like Iron Man and enjoyed them, there should be something buzzing around in their head telling them: "Wow. I liked that movie so much because it engaged me in its story", which should lead them to look for more stuff like that. Not movies they know will suck, but will see because of the effects.

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:27 am

Before I start, I must say I'm glad you show'd your opinion in a respectful way and I hope this entire discussion may do the same.

If you're opinion on Ironman is it was a good movie, I can for once agree with you on something. I must say, it was the perfect mix in my mind of action and a solid plot. Tony Stark's change from 'playboy' to a superhero who was trying to fix his company's sins was an excellent plot. The next movie is supposed to deal with the plot in the comics that originally introduced the Iron Monger, Tony descending into depression and his friend taking over his super hero duties but him eventually recovering and defeating his foe, which sounds like it'll be a solid plot. In my personal opinion, Marvel's comicbook films are tipically pretty well written, in my mind, it'd because they respect their characters. This has to do with the subject because more often than not, these are summer films. I think the main reason is that everyone has diffrent tastes as to what a 'good plot' is. For instance, I thought the plot of Transformers 2 was well done and good pacing with good characters. You feel the opposite and I respect that, that and I've realized by now any attempt to change your way of thinking will only result in you insulting people, no offense, its just an observation I've made.

There's a simple reason some movies are well made and other are made poorly to some extant. In the case of Ironman, the director and writers could've made it all action and explosions but he didn't, in my mind, they respected the source, so thus they put more effort into casting and writing. I can honestly say their casting for Tony Stark was perfect, the actor fit the character's personality and that allows the actor to give a far better performance than an actor who had a totally diffrent personality. The director and writers also respected the comics, which can be told by their script writing and directing to give more life to the story.

Another movie I have mixed feelings about is the upcoming film The Last Airbender, based off Nickolodeon's Avatar series, I love the idea but I find their choice of a horror movie director for it to be questionable ,so in that case it depends on how well he can function out of his element and how much respect he has for the source material.

My point, its not the fault of the addience, its the fault of the writers not respecting the idea they're trying to convey. When the writers and actors respect the idea, then the movie can be amazing, if they don't, they don't put their heart in it and try to make up for that with plenty of fight scenes and explosions. Do you see my point?

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:00 am

Baron Von Doomed wrote:

With the possibility of a thread for movie fans to respectfully express their views, I'd be happy to oblige in posting in this thread.

Now, not to open up old wounds but I recently noticed a very passionate debate regarding Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (between Godzillawolf and RagingBalto). On the one hand, Godzillawolf feverishly defended the movie, pointing out numerous theories for the movie's alleged plot-holes and what-not. On the other hand, RagingBalto's been on an Anti-Transformers campaign and ranting over how it was all big, loud booms/no story and was nothing more than a money-grab (which it actually is, like everything else). For the most while, I stayed out as a neutral on the sidelines, as I hadn't seen the movie yet at that point in time until this last Sunday when I and a couple family members saw it......And, to be honest, I'm still neutral. While it's NOWHERE near as good as the first, it's not really that bad of a film. Both mens' arguments are valid, in my opinion.

First off, RagingBalto was right when he said that story took a backseat to the action. There was a story in there, but there were a few plot-holes I couldn't ignore:

*I'm going into Spoiler-territory here. So to the four of you who haven't seen it yet and don't want spoilers, walk away!*

1. Just HOW EXACTLY was the epic battle in the first TF flick successfully covered up?

2. The Decepticons had what was called a "Pretender" successfully infiltrate Sam's college. Okay....But what stopped them from sending more of them to locate the machine The Fallen was looking for? Was he far too busy rambling on about how "Only a PRIME could do this" and how "Only a PRIME could do that" to bother sending more out?

3. Speaking of which, half of the time The Fallen was on-screen, all he did was go "Only a Prime! *RAWK!* Only a Prime! *RAWK!* Only a Prime! *RAWK!* Fallen want a cracker! *RRAAWWKKK!!*". Throughout the movie, I was wondering how ONLY a "Prime" could ever vanquish The Fallen. The Primes were robots, The Fallen was a robot, all Transformers in the movie were robots, so wouldn't that mean that if they really tried, that just about ANY one of the Transformers could've possibly beaten The Fallen?

*and #4 is just because*

4. How could Optimus Prime be STUPID enough to let The Twins into the group?

NOW.....Having said that, Godzillawolf was also right when he claimed that there were good qualities of the movie and that there was some fun to be had. The Visual/Special Effects were better then in the first film. There was more action then the first movie BY FAR. It was funny at times (though not as much as the first); especially when that annoying conspiracy-theorist kid got zapped by a tazer.TWICE. Megan Fox is a stunner as always (though she does need work in the acting department).

And yes, there were some truly BAD things about the movie; namely the stupid, blatantly racist Twins! Their body structure were that of mechanical gorillas, they spoke in ebonics, had buck teeth (one of them had a gold truth).....Heck, they're scientifically advanced robots and they couldn't even READ. Though it's pretty late, these two are easily the Jar Jar Binks of this decade. Stupid, whiny, racist, and annoying to boot!

While the action was quite good for the most part, near the end, it became near-incomprehensible. I could hardly tell who was blasting/decapitating who and The Fallen (as if he weren't wasted enough already) was brutally dispatched by Optimus Pride within seconds!

I can see where both guys are coming from where it comes to their views about this film. However, I believe why they wound up with those divided views is this (I'm NOT making fun of either guy): Godzillawolf was already a fan, knew that it would be booms and mayhem galore and thus knew what to expect and set his expectations accordingly. RagingBalto didn't like the first film, and apparently went into TF2 probably expecting something more story-driven with Shakespearean writing and thought it would be a completely different film as a result.

Because of all the negative reviews of the film, I went into it with reserved expectations and came out alright, if not disappointed overall.

And since they already gave their scores (a 9.5/10 and a 0/10 respectfully), I'll go ahead and give one.

Overall, I give Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen a 7.5/10.

Thanks for remaining neutrial, though I have to point out my opinion that the Twins, while they were sterotypes, I believe they were meant to make fun of the sterotype rather than be the sterotype. My reasoning is they made it so obvious intentionally, which most of the time is not done. I think you're completely right about the reasons I like the movie but RagingBalto dispises it. Though I think there is another reason for it, I'm a fan of giant monster films, which tipically have plenty of explosive action but the story more often than not takes a back seat (the biggest exception in cinima history being the Gamera Triology, which managed to maintain perfect ballence between them), while RagingBalto prefer story to action, thus we have diffrent preferences.

I must point out something about to you RagingBalto, in a constructive critism way. The reason you tend to PO a lot of people here is sometimes when you talk about movies in a way that makes it seem like you think you're superor when it comes to movies by saying general audiances have poor taste and that you don't, that's a simplafied form. You didn't this time and I respect that, but that is the reason I said I didn't respect the way you stated your opinions. I'm merely telling you, you'd have a lot easier time if you took a stance like Doomed did, state how you feel about the movie without insulting people. That's just some advice, I'm not meaning it to be mean, its just an observation, something you've done with others as well, only not nearly as nice.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:38 pm

I should've also mentioned the way the characters seem appear wherever the plot needs them to appear even if the place they appear in is hundreds of miles away from where they were in the last scene.

And... Hidden text : click to show

If they were going to steal the allspark shard from the military, why even bother going after the shard Sam had? What they wanted was in his head, not on the shard.

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Sam had the symbols imprinted in his head the day he went to college, yet it is implied that Alice was there for an extended period of time before Sam arrived. Did the Decepticons just stick her there just in case Sam happened to be important in the future? Even more baffling, how the Hell did the Decepticons enroll her into college and get her a house on campus? Even if those two things were explained, why are the Decepticons going around disguised as cars and other vehicles when they can just make robots that look human?

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How come Jetfire can teleport when nobody else can? Were they THAT desparate to get to the next scene?

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How does one satellite control all transmissions on the planet?

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From the opening scene, it doesn't really look like the Decepticons are doing anything bad until the Autobots show up and start beating the ****** out of them. The G-man later says that the only explanation of why the Decepticons are still on Earth is because they are here to hunt the Autobots. I witnessed it the other way around.

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How does a disgraced agent from a military branch that no longer exists get clearance to fire a top secret experimental weapon?

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Why does Sam say to Bumblebee that he no longer needs his protection seconds after an army of appliance murderbots almost killed him?

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The pyramids have been explored. You'd think someone would have noticed a giant sun exploding machine.

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If the Primes don't blow up the sun of planets with life (should be solar systems because no planet has the sun to itself), why didn't they just find another planet?

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It is said that even in ancient days that The Fallen hated humans. WHY? What's his motivation for hating them?

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Sam dies and goes to robot heaven (ROBOT HEAVEN!!!!!), where the Primes revive him in an instant. What was the purpose of him dying at all?

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How do the Primes have a descendant if they all gave their lives? Even more baffling, how can a ROBOT be a descendant of another ROBOT?

I could go on and on. It just boggles my mind that the people who liked this film didn't catch any of that.

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:08 pm

RagingBalto wrote:

I should've also mentioned the way the characters seem appear wherever the plot needs them to appear even if the place they appear in is hundreds of miles away from where they were in the last scene.

And... Hidden text : click to show

If they were going to steal the allspark shard from the military, why even bother going after the shard Sam had? What they wanted was in his head, not on the shard.

Hidden text : click to show

Sam had the symbols imprinted in his head the day he went to college, yet it is implied that Alice was there for an extended period of time before Sam arrived. Did the Decepticons just stick her there just in case Sam happened to be important in the future? Even more baffling, how the Hell did the Decepticons enroll her into college and get her a house on campus? Even if those two things were explained, why are the Decepticons going around disguised as cars and other vehicles when they can just make robots that look human?

Hidden text : click to show

How come Jetfire can teleport when nobody else can? Were they THAT desparate to get to the next scene?

Hidden text : click to show

How does one satellite control all transmissions on the planet?

Hidden text : click to show

From the opening scene, it doesn't really look like the Decepticons are doing anything bad until the Autobots show up and start beating the ****** out of them. The G-man later says that the only explanation of why the Decepticons are still on Earth is because they are here to hunt the Autobots. I witnessed it the other way around.

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How does a disgraced agent from a military branch that no longer exists get clearance to fire a top secret experimental weapon?

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Why does Sam say to Bumblebee that he no longer needs his protection seconds after an army of appliance murderbots almost killed him?

Hidden text : click to show

The pyramids have been explored. You'd think someone would have noticed a giant sun exploding machine.

Hidden text : click to show

If the Primes don't blow up the sun of planets with life (should be solar systems because no planet has the sun to itself), why didn't they just find another planet?

Hidden text : click to show

It is said that even in ancient days that The Fallen hated humans. WHY? What's his motivation for hating them?

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Sam dies and goes to robot heaven (ROBOT HEAVEN!!!!!), where the Primes revive him in an instant. What was the purpose of him dying at all?

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How do the Primes have a descendant if they all gave their lives? Even more baffling, how can a ROBOT be a descendant of another ROBOT?

I could go on and on. It just boggles my mind that the people who liked this film didn't catch any of that.

I did catch it and for most of them, I have logical anwsers.

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For the first one, because the shard didn't transmit the information to Sam until he touched it and like any map, each part had diffrent information.

With Alice, its simple, did you see how easily she was destroyed? Getting hit by a car killed her, that seems a pretty good reason to use her model for spying. I'm assuming Alice was just to keep an eye on Sam because he foiled their plans before, he could do it again.

Jetfire is an ancient Transformer, the Fallen could teleport as well, so it must be something only ancient Transformers can do.

Remember how the Decepticons were able to hack stuff in the original film? Soundwave was basically a giant verson of that.

That is actuelly a plot hole, congrates.

If an evil alien robot appeared on world wide TV and proclaimed an attempt to take over the world along with a world wide attack by giant alien robots, does a request to fire on a giant robot unearthing a superweapon really seem all that hard to believe?

You got me there, the only way I can think of it their sensors didn't pick up the Sun Destroyer

Most of the Primes tried to, the Fallen was evil and didn't care, thus why the others came to stop him.

Once again, the Fallen is evil, he doesn't really need a reason. Judging by the Decepticons, which the Fallen is supposedly the original, they seem to hate anything they percieve as 'weak'.

Its called a plot device, don't over think it.

That's never been a problem in the past Transformers series. As for how they had descendents if they all died, the ORIGINAL Primes died, it didn't say anything about their offspring.

But before we get into a long arguement, lets stop this now.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:40 pm

Problems with those answers:

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If so, how can only ancient transformers teleport? Things EVOLVE.

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Even with your explanation for why there aren't more pretenders, how did the Decepticons enroll Alice in college? And since Sam only got the useful info the morning he left, the question remains of why she was there in the first place unless the decepticons can somehow predict the future. Hell, Alice didn't even advance the story in any way, making the whole thing useless filler.

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Even if Soundwave is a super hacker, hacking every transmission on earth from one satellite is impossible in ways that I can't even begin to explain. It's not a question of hacking ability, it's a question of logic.

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Even if an alien robot threatened the world on worldwide TV, the military doesn't work that way.

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Of course The Fallen needs a motivation. You can't just be evil because a movie needs a bad guy.

More plot holes:

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Why didn't all the Primes just gang up on the Fallen and kill him if they knew he was so evil? And don't give me that "they couldn't kill one of their own" BS.

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Why did the Primes sacrifice themselves to build a tomb out of their own bodies? Wouldn't it be easier to guard if they were alive?

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How did they travel from Petra to Cairo in a matter of minutes? Those two are hundreds of miles away from each other.

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What was the use of Leo? He didn't do anything.

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Jetfire basically quit the Decepticons for no reason.

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How does a Jordanian radio patch through to an American aircraft carrier?

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How did they cover up the attacks in LA and Shanghai? Also, since part of NEST's job is to keep the robots concealed from the public, why do they choose tactics missions that could only result in tons of collateral damage?

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Why didn't Bumblebee just drive Sam to Optimus instead of having him walk through a warzone? Better yet, why did Sam CHOOSE to get out?

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:03 pm

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Why can't we build things like the Pyramids with primitive technology? Knowledge can be forgotten.

As I just said, they knew Sam was going there, he'd already managed to kill Megatron once, avoid their clutches time and again, and destroy the All Spark, does it or does it not make sense to keep an eye on someone whose done that before? Sam, despite being a mere human, was still a threat and due to his realationship with the Autobots, would make a good hostage, plus, he was away from Bumblebee at colladge, they probably knew that he'd have to leave him at home due to the rules (which they'd have to know to enroll their Pretender in the colladge) so thus, Sam would be vunerable.

He's also from a species with technology lightyears ahead of anything we have.

The military also already had confirmation of Decepticons in the area and where sending forces anyway, they thus has visuel confirmation of Devestator, heck, everything within view of the pyramid had visuel confirmation of him. Plus, he knew about a highly classified weapon, meaning its more difficult to just write him off, considering everything going on, is that really that hard to decide what to do?

The best awnser I can give, power corrupts.

And onto your other plot holes.

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They tried, didn't you hear Jetfire specifically say the Primes weren't powerful enough to kill the Fallen?

Because it made for a good plot device, I agree, it is a plot hole.

Time contrants, that is just a fact when you're making any movie.

Before you mention how come Optimus was able to kill the Fallen when the ancient Primes failed to do so, you already anwsered that question yourself, things evolve, particularally robots, so Optimus was upgraded greatly over the originals. If Megatron and Optimus are actuelly brothers, then Megatron, who was apparently weaker than Optimus at the time, probably could've killed the fallen as well.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:33 pm

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About Soundwave, like I said, it's not a question of technology or hacking ability. It's a question of LOGIC. Common sense should be able to tell you that there is no remotely possible way that one satellite, however enhanced, was enough to do all that.

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Again, how did the Decepticons enroll her in college? They would need to pay for her tuition, sign her up, get her a dorm, etc.

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Unless they were on the Nile River, there is no body of water within shooting distance that the aircraft carrier could have been on.

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How did Ravage get on that cargo ship? Did it swim? Also, there is no way in Hell a cargo ship carrying things like cars would be let anywhere near an area guarded by military submarines.

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How did the Decepticons know those two people were Sam's mom and dad? And how did they get to Egypt so fast from France without being shot out of space?

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How was Mikaela allowed to bring a weaponized robot in her briefcase on a plane? Don't they check luggage with x-rays?

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Why would the Egyptians build pyramids around the sun exploding machine instead of tearing it down like logic would suggest?

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Where did Sam get that extra sock? Are we supposed to believe he just carries a sock around for no reason?

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Why would Sam keep something a bunch of armed to the teeth alien robots are after in his sweatshirt pocket?

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:37 pm

You know, there is one easy anwser. Since when do things need to make sense in a movie about giant transforming robots? Half the stuff you mentioned makes more sense than a realistic idea of giant alien robots that are self aware, but its been around for years in diffrent forms. So why analyze and nitpick? No wonder you didn't enjoy the movie, you were too busy picking out every litte plot hole. Movies aren't made to make sense, they're made to entertain, easy as that.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:45 pm

Godzillawolf wrote:

You know, there is one easy anwser. Since when do things need to make sense in a movie about giant transforming robots? Half the stuff you mentioned makes more sense than a realistic idea of giant alien robots that are self aware, but its been around for years in diffrent forms. So why analyze and nitpick? No wonder you didn't enjoy the movie, you were too busy picking out every litte plot hole. Movies aren't made to make sense, they're made to entertain, easy as that.

I didn't TRY to pick it apart. These plot holes were pretty obvious, and I have a problem when a movie treats me like an idiot. And the "it doesn't need to make sense" argument is just asinine. Like I said before, if you spend $200 million on a movie, you have more than enough money to make something good. It's like saying "you can't expect a movie about a guy who dresses up like a bat and beats up criminals using advanced spy gadgets" about The Dark Knight. The reason Transformers is nonsensical isn't because you can't make something serious out of its source material, it's because the writers weren't trying.

On a side note, anyone care to wager how much GI Joe will suck? Stephen Sommers is directing, and if anyone can out-schlock Michael Bay, it's the director of Van Helsing and Deep Rising.

P.S. Of course movies need to make sense. Story is part of entertainment value.

Godzillawolf · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:54 pm

I'm going to stop now on that, I see you'll never listin to me. Just don't go making a big deal about other peoples opinions who LIKE the movie.

I do agree that they could've done a better job, just its not extremely bad.

As for GI Joe, I have to say it depends on how well the director and actors take the script and source materal. They respect it, take it seriously, it could be a great movie. As I've said, in my opinion, its all about how much respect the writers and directors have for their plot line as too how well it'll end up.

RagingBalto · **Posted:** Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:01 pm

Godzillawolf wrote:

I'm going to stop now on that, I see you'll never listin to me. Just don't go making a big deal about other peoples opinions who LIKE the movie.

I do agree that they could've done a better job, just its not extremely bad.

As for GI Joe, I have to say it depends on how well the director and actors take the script and source materal. They respect it, take it seriously, it could be a great movie. As I've said, in my opinion, its all about how much respect the writers and directors have for their plot line as too how well it'll end up.

For GI Joe, It doesn't look like the director, writers or even the people who cast the movie (they cast one of the Wayans brothers) took the source material seriously at all.

Instead of respecting the mythology and crafting something interesting out of it, it looks like they just made a big, over-CGI'd mess. I wouldn't have even known it was GI Joe if the title didn't come up at the end of the trailer.

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Why are audiences so soft on Summer action films?