Animation Source Forums

This is in response to the "Blaming the Mods" topic that's on here. I think it gets right to the source of the problem. No, not that people blame the mods too much, but that certain mods will brook no dissent when it comes to their opinions.

I don't blame the mods, in fact, I don't think they're strict enough when it comes to dealing with chronic troublemakers.

But to come in the forum and say something like it's the will of God himself and then lock the topic to prevent any dissent is downright autocratic. You're not a tin-horn dictator, and BaltoSource is not your own personal banana republic. That's what makes people angry. Not that mods ban people, but the fact that they descend from on high to make pronouncements and then don't justify them in the slightest. Actions need to be justified, not simply propped up with, "Well, I said so, end of story!" In the past, I've seen mods who've cussed at people in the forums, made fun of members in the shoutbox, and generally comported themselves in a way inconsistent with being a moderator on BaltoSource. Were these mods reprimanded? No. Were they banned? Oh, no! Did they have their mod status revoked? No sir. They were simply free to go along their merry way.

As to the 'we're only human, we make mistakes' idea, well, there certainly seem to be an awful lot of mistakes being made. With great power comes great responsibility. Mods can't make the same number of mistakes that users do, because they're mods. They're supposed to be the high standard, not just another member who can ban other members at the drop of a hat. Mistakes need to be eliminated, not simply brushed under the rug with kiddy-cussing and arbitrarily locked forum topics. If a mod or mods can't stop making mistakes, then perhaps they don't need to be a mod anymore.

Too true. I wanted to post a reply to that, but what's this? Topic has been locked. What's the point of ranting if you're not going to let others have input? There was no need to lock it, but it still was.

There's been a problem like that, and mods are always going to be softer on themselves, which is a pain when they've done it repeatedly. Seems like it's something that won't change, however.
(Off topic, but Electric Boogaloo... from Jazz Jackrabbit 2? )

To enlighten you on something;
What you don't see (regarding to mod's breaking the rules) is our conversations in the mod's box. There we discuss everything that happens, and mod together. We are not "somebody who comes from the heavens and locks stuff without justifying it". Everything is discussed at the mod's box, and I've seen it myself, actually, that a mod who did something wrong is put to his or her place aggressively and quickly.

Personally, I agree with Swords on that topic, and to be quite honest; if we moderators let you know about how we work, we wouldn't be able to keep the website within certain bounds anymore, because members like you, would instantly bite our heads off, and use this information against us.

In other words; the reason you all see it that way, is because of the secrecy, which is a REQUIREMENT.

And, moderators do not get away anyway. A certain person once had its moderation powers revoked, because it kept breaking the rules, and abusing the power. We are in no way softer to each others; actually, we're more aggressive than you when it comes to a fellow mod having broken the rules, or done something wrong.

Now, if I may be so frank, I would say that you have absolutely no idea of what's going on in the mod's box, thus you can not (or shouldn't) make prejudgements, or statements without having been enlightened.


This is really getting to me. We are working 24/7 FOR you, not against you, and what do we get back? Ungratefulness!

But noooo! We can't voice our opinions, because you'll immediately bite our heads off! And telling you exactly what we think about your ungratefulness is an absolute taboo, even though you're freaking doing it yourself!
And no, of course we can't be seen as normal members! Sure we can't! 'Cause we're just people who wants to ruin the life on BS for everybody, eh?
Tell you what, I'm sick of this kind of attitude. I don't really care what will happen to me after I've posted this, but I really need to get this off my chest.

Moderators have no more rights than other members, actually. We are just a team who's helping Steet with managing the website. What's wrong with that?

Very well put Wolflux,even Mods should be allowed to express their opinions WITHOUT members biting their heads off.

Unless its you, openly pondering on the shoutbox if you should spam the mod box or not, which has been more complained about than for example, me banning someone for too long when I was a mod.



Well, don't give us information to use against you, then.



Tap on the hands isn't aggression. I've seen it.



It really doesn't take a brain surgeon to know what goes on in the mod's box.



Show me one time when there was a mod on at all times of the day. Not the same mod. Just A mod.



Who's biting who's head off? Sorry to say, but the majority of this site agrees with whatever mods have to say, you're just angry someone doesn't like the many mistakes being made.



Who said that? You're overreacting (or PMSing)



Tell you what, you need to chill.



Its not the fact you're helping steet, its when you (the mods) are NOT helping steet. People obviously like when you do a good job moderating, so what's the hold up? What's wrong with saying "Okay, we need to make less mistakes"? Because whether you like to believe it or not, they're there. Too often. Mostly having to do with NOT banning people, as it was said, but it seems it needs to be stated again. People give out 5 too many warnings for people because they're "afraid to ban them" because they're afraid of "people hating them." Boo hoo. I'm not being mean,I'm being honest, and you need to get over yourselves, because you're saying nothing's wrong with how you're running things. Can you say "denial"?

Here's what you can do, kiddies. In the mod box, get in a big ol circle and ask each other (seriously) what you yourself can improve on (either doing more of, or less of) and um, do it. It'll be such wonderful fun. That way you're getting a neutral perspective on yourself. And be honest. These things never work when people lie and say "Oh you're a wonderful mod! You don't have to change a thing! Teehee!"

No one is saying you can't have an opinion Ultima. But it is very frustrating when I see the same mods making the same mistakes, over and over and over again. I see the same people, spamming, cussing, and causing problems, and being warned time and again with no results. I see the same mods, picking fights with members. Nothing gets resolved, and when these problems are pointed out, we get told that we're ungrateful and that we should respect the mods. Well, I'll tell you what. Respect is earned, not demanded. I, in general, respect the mods. But I'm not going to tell them that I think they're doing a great job when it's clear that they're not.

I think Cat's idea about improving the mods is a decent one. At the very least, it can't hurt.

Improving mods? Not a bad idea, in my opinion. There is nothing to lose.
Unfortunately if we try to be a bit more strict, and of course try to treat the members conform rules, the banned people will start threatening or having a grudge against mods. And start different phrases, such as "Oh no X Y Z mod is being horrible to me! I will leave this site, forever!".-> I've seen million of cases. But again, it's a mod's problem. And this again depends on how strong are they to endure it. (of course, who would need a whining moderator?)
However I still agree with this rant.

Tell me one time, one time, when that has happened as a serious thing?


You'll use everything against us, even if we said we had a toilet of our own -.-



Actually, believe me, we do attack each others as well, should one of "us" do anything which that person shouldn't have done.



Right. If you know what's going on in there, why don't you just tell?


Me, every day. I made an automated moderation system for when I am away from the computer, that logs everything that happens on BS for my viewing pleasure when I return. It runs 24/7, and can take action, send warnings, etc. by just filling in a few simple parameters.



I say, you're doing exactly that now. I am getting it that way, at least. And I am not angry, I am just tired of "nuu i got banned mods hate me" or "why do i get warned and noone else?" or even the classic "mods are corrupted" things many of our members claim, or say.



Actually, there are a couple of rants who's said that, which apparently, many people agree on. I happen to know that you posted in at least one of them.



That's an unnecessary comment, which you could have kept to yourself, to be quite honest. Where's your argument?


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We are saying that to each others, and we do, indeed, make a lot of mistakes. Problem is, you keep attacking us on mistakes done ages ago, without any thought of that it might have been improved. And Cat14, the fact that I was the only one who had the guts to ban you (simply because I don't see you as either friend or foe, nor do I hate or like you, but you've got quite a big army of fans who'd be furious), does not mean that everything isn't as it should be. Your case was a mistake from the mods (not the ban, but giving you too many warnings).

In any case, although it may not look like it, we DO take all critique into consideration, and work hard to improve. It's just, when people can't see how hard we're working to make you happy, and keep complaining about us, even going so far to say that moderators are evil, is frustrating.



If you see a moderator working like that, all you need to do is to send me a PM, and I'll look it up. I'm no person to judge myself (or others) without a good basis, but I consider myself to be fair. Just... don't make a topic for every single time this happens.
It might not look like it, but we ARE working together on almost anything, so making false claims isn't exactly helping our mood.
And everything gets resolved ultimately, but continuously poking us with the same problem would become annoying, even you need to agree on that. You're told you're ungrateful, when all we get are complains on our work, when we're trying hard to adapt for everything.

And I agree that respect is earned, but don't you think that moderators have earned respect by now? If even a little?

And I am not saying we are doing a great job, because we aren't. We're struggling. However, I'd say we aren't doing a bad job either.

EDIT: And yes, I do realize that some of my "arguments" above aren't arguments at all, but I'll state this here; everything I've said above, is from my personal (subjective, in other words; no facts) point of view.

I really shouldn't touch this one, not even with a ten foot pole... No, seriously now.
I don't really get why you're going at the mods all the time. I mean, being a mod isn't a privilege - it's a responsibility. Mods have to make tough decisions, have to be available at a regular basis, invest their time in the forum, make unpopular decisions, go against their own opinions and feelings (after all, they apply someone else's rules) and be constantly on the lookout not to let any rule-breaking pass (if they do, you'll defiantly see a rant complaining about how little the mods do - it's always something, I suppose). Not to mention they are supposed to be voices of reasons in arguments they take part in - I mean, just imagine the flak a mod would get when flaming someone.
Being a mod is anything but fun.
Does that mean they should get away with everything? No, of course not. As a matter of fact, mods attract more scrutiny than other members - they stick out in the crowd, so to speak.
Of course they'll make some mistakes, and enact some abuses every now and then - but some of the comments made here are just unfair. From my own experiences, mods who locked topics did it on fair grounds - I wouldn't have done it myself, but I get what they do it for. And if you lack justification, you could always just politely pm- I doubt that 'll get you a ban. Maybe sometimes the lock downs are a bit arbitrary, but you have to remember that we don't have a rule of law here: if something happens, it's because the admin wants it so (with the mods serving as his executive representatives). In that respect, an Internet-forum is indeed a bit autocratic, but that's the entire point - we don't do democracy here. We talk Balto/TLK.

That said, you can't get past the fact that there seems to be a lot of outcry about some perceived problems. And if only half the issues mentioned here are true, there is indeed a problem. But instead of slinging mud and being bitter ("poor me, I was wrongfully treated"), how 'bout someone thinks of a solution?
How about a mod to supervise the mods? Let Steet appoint, from the existing mods, an "oversight-mod" who exclusively supervises the other mods behavior and bans dealt, comparing what those mods do to a list of objective standards (a list agreed on by the other mods and the admin)? Someone who doesn't bother with regular members, but just oversees what other mods do (and overturns their decisions if they do something wrong). Ideally, the admin would do this, but he's already got too much of a workload I fear. And if you have an issue with the mods, you go see that oversight-mod (obviously, you'll be looking for a mod with an impeccable record).
Bad idea?

Let me make it clear that the reason why I locked that topic was because there are certain people, who shall remain nameless, who would simply look it over for flaws, and then point them all out in their replies, and not even process it. I locked it because I felt that it would cause people to actually read it and think about it, and not be able to just point out all the flaws of extremely minimal relevance, if any, to what the rant is about. Dealing with that crap, if you ask me, is like watching it instantly go off-topic. I can't stand it. The fact that one cannot reply to it is, if you ask me, a way to allow people to allow their brains to actually process it. It's like a rhetorical question, just not a question, but a statement, to put it simply.

And before I go, let me just make a few things terribly clear to you all:

1. Mods are human beings, and therefore we make mistakes.
2. Mods are not transcendent beings, and cannot know every little freaking thing that goes on when it happens
3. We don't lock topics unless it violates the rules.
4. We don't ban people without a good enough reason.

If I see a good enough reason to un-lock that topic of mine, then I'll do so but right now I don't think that I see one.

Feel free to elaborate.

It just seems when one of us tries to suggest an overview or something, you all get all cranky at us for being ungrateful. I'm sure this wasn't meant to offend, but meant to be taken into consideration, which none of you are really doing, you're just trying to defend yourselves.

Also, I disagree with this whole secrecy thing over bans and such. If you just TOLD people why certain people were banned, we wouldn't have this whole problem! They'd understand! But since they're left in the dark about some of their best buds, of course they're going to be angry!


But until then, they can run around and do whatever they please with the ShoutBox. They can dump a buttload of swearing, insults, explicit links etc etc. People still see it. Saying "I deal with it, after it's happened" is no way to handle a situation. It's preferable to stop such a person the moment they start so not as much trouble becomes of it, not later when they've already done the deed and/or have been doing it for half an hour in clear view of members that shouldn't be exposed to such things at a young age. Also, if such program was running, why have people gotten away with such acts in the past and only been dealt with a ban when the moderator was online?

Secrecy over bans? I don't know anything about that... I don't even see a reason why the mods would do that. I dunno, maybe the reason why we don't say that is because nobody asks (that I know of).

And the thing about the overviews and such, it's kinda hard to take all of them seriously because of the sheer number of those we get! We get enough reprimanding from steet and the other mods when one of us does something wrong, so it's just annoying to see a lot of members who often (but not all the time, mind you) think they could be a better mod than us, because honestly, if it was that obvious, steet would have asked that person to be a mod. I'm sorry, but it is simply just extremely stressful with a lot of people saying they could be better mods than us when in reality they'd let the site run into complete anarchy if we let them be mods! It's just that with all this stress from all this, it's hard sometimes to distinguish what is meant to be taken seriously from what is just "The mods SUCK!"-type junk. And to be honest, I could probably count on one hand the number of people that I can truly say appreciate what we do, not including the mods themselves.

It's not because people are critical that they don't respect you. Quite to the contrary. I respect the mods for what they do, but that doesn't mean I can't say there are area's with room for improvement.
One of these area's is openness. Maybe the banning instruments are standardized, and maybe the mods are subject to close oversight. But the matter of fact is that we can't see it, and that is a real problem. For a system to be just, it is not enough that justice has been done, it should also be seen done. What is there against some kind of openness, against a topic where we see what mods do (and in brief why) to regular members and other mods?
Another area is modesty. True, you are a mod, and a good one at it. Keep at it, and kudos to you. But no one is irreplaceable; to say the forum would implode if other mods were in place is going a bit far (although it isn't impossible).
And just for the record: no, that doesn't mean I think I could do better; I wouldn't. That's why I have no immediate aspirations to become a mod. That's another point I'd like to make: if someone says there is something that could be done otherwise, you shouldn't presume she/he wants to become a mod. It just means she/he thinks something could or should be done otherwise, no strings attached.