Wolves ARE Dogs

MW Roach · **Posted:** Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:56 am

Quote:

"The first dog domesticated by man was a wolf.... The remains found in the Beaverhead mountains of Idaho and those found in Europe, Asia and pre-Columbian America all belong to the same epoch. The friendship between man and dog is one of the oldest and most lasting in history." Simon & Schuster's Guide to Dogs, ISBN 0-67-1-25527-4

"Herre and his colleagues at the institute had come to the firm conclusion on the basis of a large number of skull measurements and examinations of the size and structure of the brain, blood factors, and numbers of chromosomes that all dogs, whether Pekingese, bulldogs or Alsatians, were descended solely from the wolf and not, as has often been assumed, from the wolf and the jackal. "The domesticated wolf is the dog". The Wolf, a Species in Danger, Dr. Erik Zimen, Delacorte Press, NY, ISBN 0-440-09619-7

"Somewhere in early history a young wolf was brought into the family circle of man and through the years became the source of the domestic dog and our most successful and useful experiment in domestication". From foreword written by Ian McTaggart Cowan, Dean of Graduate Studies and Professor of Zoology, University of British Columbia, to The Wolf, Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species, Dr. L. David Mech, USFWS, Natural History Press, Garden City NY, ISBN 0-385-08660-1
"Wolf-dog Genetics", N.A. Iljin, 1941
"The Phylogeny of dogs", W.D. Matthew, 1930

"Although the subject continues to be controversial, most authorities now agree that all dogs, from chihuahuas to dobermans are descended from wolves which were tamed in the Near East ten or twelve thousand years ago".Wolves, C. Savage, Sierra Club Book, ISBN 0-87156-689-3

"But man also made use of the wolf. The dogs owned by the American Indians must have descended from wolf stock". The Living Wilderness, Rutherford G. Montgomery, Torquil Books, 1964, Library of Congress No. 64-20648

"The wolf is in fact a wild dog, a member of the scientific family Canidae, which includes domestic dogs as well as other dog-like wild animals such as foxes and jackals. "Scientists believe that wolves are the direct ancestors of today's domestic dogs. They think that early humans domesticated wild wolves to make them useful companions and work animals. Since that time, selective breeding has produced the many varieties of domestic dogs, some of which are very un-wolflike in appearance and habit". Wolf Pack, Sylvia Johnson, Alice Aamodt, First Avenue Editions, ISBN 0-8225-9526-5

"Few other species have had such a diversity of relationships with man as has the wolf. Evidently early humans tamed wolves and domesticated them, eventually selectively breeding them and finally developing the domestic dog (Canis familiaris) from them. "To date no differences in karyotypes have been found between the wolf and the domestic dog or the coyote (Hungerford & Snyder, 1966), or the red wolf (Nowak, 1970).

According to Hsu and Benirschke (1967), both dog and coyote have 39 pairs of chromosomes, with the autosomes described as "acrocentrics or teleocentrics" and the sex chromosomes as "submetacentric" for the X and 'minute' for the Y in the coyote and "minute metacentric" for the Y in the dog. Iljin (1941) crossed a wolf with a black mongrel sheep dog and then made various types of crosses for four generations, totaling 101 individuals, all of which were fertile".The Mammalian Radiations, John F. Eisenberg, The University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-19537-6

"A wild wolf is genetically little more distant from the domesticated dog than a wild mustang is to a quarter horse. (That wolf and dog can be hybridized, while a fox and dog cannot, points to the genetic and ancestral affinities of wolf and dog.)...."In actuality, a poodle, like any purebred dog, already has innumerable wolf genes since they share a close common ancestry." Dr. Michael W. Fox, D.V.M., Ph.D., D.Sc., Vice President, Bioethics, Humane Society of the United States. Affidavit.

"....Breeds of dogs can not be distinguished from each other by any known anatomical attribute or even biochemical genetic test, including DNA fingerprinting. Since a given breed of dog can not be defined by any scientific means currently known, our contention is that it is not possible to write any ordinance or law that would single them out for special treatment since they cannot be so defined in a legal sense. "Recently I attended a canine genetics workshop at Texas A & M University in which it was further emphasized that there is no biochemical genetic test that can even distinguish wolves from domestic dogs. "....I would taxonomically identify all wolves, wolf hybrids and domestic dogs as the species Canis lupus. Technically, the domestic dog and wolf hybrids should be designated as the sub-species "domesticus". I. Lehr Brisbin, Jr., Research Professor, Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, The University of Georgia. Letter, 30, Jan. 1990

"There is not presently a valid test that will guarantee analysis of whether a particular canine carries wolf blood. Certain DNA studies have been conducted by a New York laboratory under contract by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, but a much larger population study of wolf and dog breeds would have to be done before conclusive results can be obtained." Jerry M. Conley, Director, Idaho Fish and Game Dept. From letter to Gov. Cecil D. Andrus, March 19, 1992

"Canis familiaris is the scientific name for the domesticated dog. He belongs to the same genus as the wolf, Canis lupus. Scientists, after many years of controversy, now agree that wolves were domesticated about 12,000 years ago by various Indian tribes throughout the world". Leader of The Pack, Shaping Dog Instincts Through Pack Training, Nathan B. Childs, Pack Publishing, ISBN 0-9616304-1-8

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This just proves what myself and many others here at Balto Source have been saying. WOLVES ARE NOTHING MORE THEN A BREED OF DOG ! ! ! ! And your constant blather about how they’re ‘wild and dangerous beasts’ is just ridiculous. You’re stereotyping wolves as badly as those who stereotype pit bulls, rottwielers, dobermans and german shepards. Blame the Deed ; Not the Breed. The same rule applies for wolfdogs. Just because some people were stupid and didn’t know how to raise a wolf properly doesn’t mean we’re ALL morons ; and it doesn’t mean that ALL wolves/wolfdogs are killers. They’re just another breed of misunderstood DOG.

Also, the term ‘hybrid’ is badly misused when describing wolfdogs. A ‘hybrid’ is a creature made up of 2 DIFFERENT species ; a freak ; an abomonation ; a mutant, if you will (EX : A Cat crossed with a Weasel would be considered a Hybrid.) But because Dogs and Wolves are the SAME species (even if it’s a subspecies…they’re the same…like a horse and a donkey), wolfdogs should NOT be considered hybrids. No more then a collie/shepard mix should be considered a hybrid.

Wolves are dogs; end of story.

Cogitor · **Posted:** Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:10 pm

IceWolf0426 wrote:

Wolves are NOT dogs.If one had to be the other a dog would be a wolf.Not the other way around.After all,which came first:a dog or a wolf?

How 'bout we compromise: both wolf and (domesticated) dog belong to the 'dog-specie', a branch of the canine family.

The point raised by rolla_wolf9 was a good one though: if any of you say wolf(dogs) are inherently dangerous, you'd better be consistent and say the same thing about the (so called?) dangerous breeds, in stead of making an exception for your favorite dog (along the lines of: wolf dog = always dangerous, rottweiler = just a bad owner).

Btw, horses and donkeys are not similar to wolves and dogs; donkeys and horses don't produce fertile offspring (and are thus hybrids?).

Canis Lupus · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:35 am

IceWolf0426 wrote:

Wolves are NOT dogs.If one had to be the other a dog would be a wolf.Not the other way around.After all,which came first:a dog or a wolf?

The wolf came first since man domesticated the dog from the wolf.

The wolf, strictly speaking, is a member of the dog family (Canidae), which also includes foxes and jackals. The domestic dogs we know are a subspecies of wolf - canis lupus familaris.
However, that does NOT mean that the wolf is simply a wild version of your pet dog. They may not deserve their fairy tale reputation as 'the Big Bad Wolf who eats children.' But wolves are not harmless either - like all wild animals they can be aggressive if provoked, and therefore should be treated with respect

Domestic dogs, in terms of DNA, are no different from the wolf. They are a domestic version of the wolf. A lot of dog behaviour is modified wolf behaviour.
But I think dogs are different in heart and soul to the wolf. Wolves are free spirits, whilst dogs are faithful companions. They are easier to train and tame.

As I've said before, if you want a wolf, get a dog. Dogs are wolves that can live with people.

HrryNrmn · **Posted:** Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:55 am

"Wolves are NOT dogs.If one had to be the other a dog would be a wolf.Not the other way around.After all,which came first:a dog or a wolf?"

This is faulty logic, in which you state that A=B therefore B=A. This works mathematically, but not here. For example, my entire family enjoys cooking. They are all people. Therefore all people who enjoy cooking are part of my family. This is obviously faulty.

Banshee · **Posted:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:36 pm

Uhh.. no. Wolves aren't dogs. Wolves date back alot longer then dogs do, and just because dogs were breed from wolves doesn't make dogs wolves. There different animals. ;D

Pommy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:43 pm

-Silver wind{Tani}- wrote:

are you sure the dog didnt evolve from the wolf then,because a wolf is still part of the dog family.

BAKA BAKA BAKA -_-

The dog is a sub species of wolf, but both are from the canine family. WOLVES CAME FIRST.

MW Roach · **Posted:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:22 pm

-Silver wind{Tani}- wrote:

are you sure the dog didnt evolve from the wolf then,because a wolf is still part of the dog family.

If the dog evolved from the wolf, the wolf would be extinct (I don't believe in evolution anyway, but I won't go into that). So, I agree with you, in a way.

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I also notice that a lot of people are saying wolves are "so aggressive" XD I can't help but laugh at that. Ever go to the zoo to see the wolves in the exhibits? Jumpy, aren't they? Cautious, nervous...they only want to hide. They're not at the glass (or bars, depending on what kind of zoo you visit) baring their teeth and snarling at the visitors, they're afraid. Go to a dog pound, and those dogs are up at the doors barking their heads off; bold and daring...almost aggressive, one would say.

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Here's an off-topic question: Why do people blame the wolf-half of a wolfdog for being aggressive? Especially when statistics show that 5 million people a year are bitten by dogs (10-15 people per year are KILLED by dogs), while there has NEVER been a documented case of a wild wolf EVER attacking a human? (pet wolves attacking humans are usually abused, neglegted or chained).

Here's a fun fact! Most dog-bite-cases are caused by DOMESTIC dogs rather then strays.

Makes you wonder, huh? Makes you think that maybe the world has the whole dog-wolf thing a$$ backwards?...

I can't help but compare my dog, Cheeba's behavior to my wolfdogs, Toboe and Indo. Cheeba shows way more aggression then both of them put together. Our neighbors boxers are also very aggressive. Indo is friendly to people, but very docile and submissive around other animals; Toboe is bolder then Indo when it comes to the other animals, but will cower at the sound of a vehicle backfiring or an assertive tone. Cheeba, meanwhile is fearless of any noise and will gleefully take a run at the geese or goat.

Of course, this is just my animals; personalities always vary.

Cobaltié · **Posted:** Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:35 pm

Err... no. Wolves aren't dogs. Dogs aren't wolves. They are both canids, yes, but that doesn't mean one is the other.

Dogs descended from wolves. Dogs are tamed. Wolves are not. There's a difference.

Wolves are Lupus canis, dogs lupus canis familiaris. Familiarised. Do you see familiaris on the wolf's scientific name? Nope.

OwnedByAGoldenRetriever · **Joined:** Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:12 pm **Posts:** 698

rolla_wolf9 wrote:

... there has NEVER been a documented case of a wild wolf EVER attacking a human? (pet wolves attacking humans are usually abused, neglegted or chained).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_wolf_attacks

I hope you like it.

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Wolves ARE Dogs