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Titan Dreamer
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:51 pm |
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I never said everyone did that; I meant that producers want the movie to appeal to a wider audience, so they give more variation in the characters. Just because not everyone is absolutely necessary doesn't mean they're not worth inclusion in the plot.
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angryunicorn
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:05 pm |
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Origamist wrote: I never said everyone did that; I meant that producers want the movie to appeal to a wider audience, so they give more variation in the characters. Just because not everyone is absolutely necessary doesn't mean they're not worth inclusion in the plot. If this is true, it's only to sell more toys, not necessarily sell to a wider audience. You change the genre and rating to gain a wider audience, not expand your character numbers. xD The only time a movie or show has say multiple main characters, like in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, it's 1) to sell more toys, but also to have more characters relate to different people. But again, that's a bit different, because FiM is a series, and not a movie, so they're allowed the time to have multiple characters.
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Titan Dreamer
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:00 am |
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Selling merchandise and having a wider variety of characters are two completely different things. No one's going to buy merchandise of a character they don't like, regardless of whether it's just looks or not. And the number of characters doesn't determine the number of toys; it only influences it.
And Balto doesn't have multiple main characters--that's the point. There are several characters, but most of them are in supporting roles. Some (Muk & Luk) are for comic relief, some (Jenna) are there to encourage the other characters, and some (Nikki, Kaltag, Star, etc.) are there to entertain the kids. (Remember, it's a kids' movie above all else; not everyone needs to have a role.) They're trying to bring in kids' favorite characters to keep their attention. Kids don't care what a character does or doesn't do, they're only "Ohh, I wanna see the doggy!"
I think you guys will just about all agree that the Balto sequels were much kiddier than the first movie. That's why.
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:25 am |
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Origamist wrote: Selling merchandise and having a wider variety of characters are two completely different things. No one's going to buy merchandise of a character they don't like, regardless of whether it's just looks or not. And the number of characters doesn't determine the number of toys; it only influences it. That's what I figured. Of course there's collectors, but i find it hard to imagine them making enough of a percentage to be statistically significant. Origamist wrote: And Balto doesn't have multiple main characters--that's the point. There are several characters, but most of them are in supporting roles. Some (Muk & Luk) are for comic relief, some (Jenna) are there to encourage the other characters, and some (Nikki, Kaltag, Star, etc.) are there to entertain the kids. (Remember, it's a kids' movie above all else; not everyone needs to have a role.) They're trying to bring in kids' favorite characters to keep their attention. Kids don't care what a character does or doesn't do, they're only "Ohh, I wanna see the doggy!" Most kids. Origamist wrote: I think you guys will just about all agree that the Balto sequels were much kiddier than the first movie. That's why. That's true. - Now, moving on to some of the other ladies of the Balto universe... Dixie and Sylvie. I think their main function was to provide a contrast to Jenna's personality. In essence, she was the diamond and they were the rough. Dipsy: She was pretty much just comic relief, and she did it well, in an eye-rolling sort of way. Dusty: Okay, her main contribution has been endless bickering over pairings. But apparently it's unthinkable to have a group consist of all males - heck, even the Ninja Turtles had a female member in one series. Having said that, I think on an emotional level the fact that she was the first to actually move on Kodi's little speech gained something from her being a girl. but that's just my opinion. I'd go on, but they're having a meeting in here so I have to move.
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| Last edited by Roi Doberwolf on Fri May 25, 2012 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total. |
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Titan Dreamer
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:32 am |
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Dragon Tamer wrote: Dixie and Sylvie. I think their main function was to provide a contrast to Jenna's personality. In essence, she was the diamond and they were the rough. Exactly. Those three dogs as a group were meant to be Steele's "posse," but Jenna ended up falling for Balto instead. So it shows that Jenna was brave enough (strong enough as a character) to give up her popularity to help Balto. Jenna's purpose was introducing Balto to Rosy. When he first arrived at the end of the race, he saw her and was basically overwhelmed by her beauty. So he figured he'd do what he could to help her, and maybe she'd like him for that. He only met Rosy after he retrieved her hat. Jenna seemed grateful for that, as did Rosy. So Rosy started liking Balto only because of that--she wouldn't have known about Balto had Balto not seen Jenna. You've been saying she was pointless, that he did it all for Rosy. Well, guess why he even knew about Rosy. It was Jenna in the first place.
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:58 am |
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Origamist wrote: Dragon Tamer wrote: Dixie and Sylvie. I think their main function was to provide a contrast to Jenna's personality. In essence, she was the diamond and they were the rough. Exactly. Those three dogs as a group were meant to be Steele's "posse," but Jenna ended up falling for Balto instead. So it shows that Jenna was brave enough (strong enough as a character) to give up her popularity to help Balto. Jenna's purpose was introducing Balto to Rosy. When he first arrived at the end of the race, he saw her and was basically overwhelmed by her beauty. So he figured he'd do what he could to help her, and maybe she'd like him for that. He only met Rosy after he retrieved her hat. Jenna seemed grateful for that, as did Rosy. So Rosy started liking Balto only because of that--she wouldn't have known about Balto had Balto not seen Jenna. You've been saying she was pointless, that he did it all for Rosy. Well, guess why he even knew about Rosy. It was Jenna in the first place. I'd have to question that, again, because it would appear Rosie knew Balto's name before that. In the case of any view on the matter, there's a considerable amount of guessing going on. It's hard to confirm or deny, with absolute certainty, either the presence or lack of any previous encounters.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 12:21 pm |
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Dragon Tamer wrote: Origamist wrote: Exactly. Those three dogs as a group were meant to be Steele's "posse," but Jenna ended up falling for Balto instead. So it shows that Jenna was brave enough (strong enough as a character) to give up her popularity to help Balto.
Jenna's purpose was introducing Balto to Rosy. When he first arrived at the end of the race, he saw her and was basically overwhelmed by her beauty. So he figured he'd do what he could to help her, and maybe she'd like him for that. He only met Rosy after he retrieved her hat. Jenna seemed grateful for that, as did Rosy. So Rosy started liking Balto only because of that--she wouldn't have known about Balto had Balto not seen Jenna.
You've been saying she was pointless, that he did it all for Rosy. Well, guess why he even knew about Rosy. It was Jenna in the first place. I'd have to question that, again, because it would appear Rosie knew Balto's name before that. In the case of any view on the matter, there's a considerable amount of guessing going on. It's hard to confirm or deny, with absolute certainty, either the presence or lack of any previous encounters. Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna.
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angryunicorn
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:37 pm |
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Origamist wrote: Dragon Tamer wrote: Dixie and Sylvie. I think their main function was to provide a contrast to Jenna's personality. In essence, she was the diamond and they were the rough. Exactly. Those three dogs as a group were meant to be Steele's "posse," but Jenna ended up falling for Balto instead. So it shows that Jenna was brave enough (strong enough as a character) to give up her popularity to help Balto. Jenna's purpose was introducing Balto to Rosy. When he first arrived at the end of the race, he saw her and was basically overwhelmed by her beauty. So he figured he'd do what he could to help her, and maybe she'd like him for that. He only met Rosy after he retrieved her hat. Jenna seemed grateful for that, as did Rosy. So Rosy started liking Balto only because of that--she wouldn't have known about Balto had Balto not seen Jenna. You've been saying she was pointless, that he did it all for Rosy. Well, guess why he even knew about Rosy. It was Jenna in the first place. Like JC said, to the audience, we're supposed to figure Rosy previously knew Balto. Not necessarily that he knew Jenna before Rosy, or vice versa. I would actually say your reasoning further proves my point that the movie, despite itself, shows that Jenna is more important to Balto than Rosy is: we get more screentime with her, the protagonist spends more time with her, so based on how the movie's scenes are constructed it stands to reason that Jenna is the reason Balto did everything, even if Balto said "Rosy" three times instead of "Jenna". The audience is connected more with Jenna than Rosy, even tho Rosy is supposed to be the one the movie revolves around. We get a mere two scenes to connect with her, one of which is of her getting sick and commences the conflict, and yet the movie is so much more focused on Balto's love-life than the actual problem. Now, even tho we get a higher quantity of Balto racing against time, those scenes are so unbearably short compared to ANY scenes featuring Balto and Jenna (and most of the time Jenna isn't actually doing anything, but being a love interest). Basically the last 15 minutes of the movie shove in about 5 different action scenes that could've been spread out, but nope. I suppose cheesy romantic scenes that later fans take too seriously were top priority. Obviously if the pacing of this movie was taken into account, Jenna could've still been in it and not been as functional as an ashtray on a motorcycle. As for Dixie and Sylvie in being there to show Jenna's contrast, in showing that "she was brave enough to give up her poopularity to help Balto." I think we as an audience understand from the get-go that Jenna wasn't interested in poopularity, hence why she wasn't fawning over Steele. If she WAS fawning over Steele, and then went for Balto, she would've developed, heck I would've even liked her more, hahaha. I can see their purpose there, in Jenna basically being their exact opposite, but... supporting characters for the supporting character? xD What did Jenna need support for again? To show that she wasn't snooty or interested in Steele? Did we need backup to get that point across? (Well, as a kid I quite enjoyed Dixie whenever she was on screen, but she obviously wasn't supposed to be the height of their comic relief. I enjoyed her a lot more than Muk and Luk, that's for sure xD)
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:38 pm |
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JerseyCaptain wrote: Dragon Tamer wrote: Origamist wrote: Exactly. Those three dogs as a group were meant to be Steele's "posse," but Jenna ended up falling for Balto instead. So it shows that Jenna was brave enough (strong enough as a character) to give up her popularity to help Balto.
Jenna's purpose was introducing Balto to Rosy. When he first arrived at the end of the race, he saw her and was basically overwhelmed by her beauty. So he figured he'd do what he could to help her, and maybe she'd like him for that. He only met Rosy after he retrieved her hat. Jenna seemed grateful for that, as did Rosy. So Rosy started liking Balto only because of that--she wouldn't have known about Balto had Balto not seen Jenna.
You've been saying she was pointless, that he did it all for Rosy. Well, guess why he even knew about Rosy. It was Jenna in the first place. I'd have to question that, again, because it would appear Rosie knew Balto's name before that. In the case of any view on the matter, there's a considerable amount of guessing going on. It's hard to confirm or deny, with absolute certainty, either the presence or lack of any previous encounters. Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna. Unless of course he had encountered Jenna before too, or Rosie heard Balto's name mentioned by someone in the crowd. There are any number of potential contigencies, although I find yours interesting. It opens up some possibilities that completely alter typical assumptions.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 9:04 pm |
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Dragon Tamer wrote: JerseyCaptain wrote: Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna. Unless of course he had encountered Jenna before too, or Rosie heard Balto's name mentioned by someone in the crowd. There are any number of potential contigencies, although I find yours interesting. It opens up some possibilities that completely alter typical assumptions. I have always said that I imagined that Rosie even named Balto...that the name Balto would not have any meaning to the wolves because it is a very human name...not a wolfish one. In theory, that could contradict established canon...except for the fact that, in Balto 2, Aniu never actually calls Balto anything other than "my son". She never calls him by name. My thoughts were that, at some point, she encountered him in town somewhere, perhaps while he was out looking for something to eat. And, with the innocence of a young child, gave him something...whatever she may have had at the time. Which would have cemented their initial friendship. There is, after all, an affectionate familiarity between them that we can see in those opening scenes. It's not a chance thing where some kid happens to know a stray wolf dog's name. She actually seems to have a knowledge of him...and a comfort level. Again, that presupposes at least one previous encounter we've never seen on-screen. But this is taking us rather off-subject. It would make for an interesting topic of discussion, however.
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:34 pm |
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JerseyCaptain wrote: Dragon Tamer wrote: JerseyCaptain wrote: Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna. Unless of course he had encountered Jenna before too, or Rosie heard Balto's name mentioned by someone in the crowd. There are any number of potential contigencies, although I find yours interesting. It opens up some possibilities that completely alter typical assumptions. I have always said that I imagined that Rosie even named Balto...that the name Balto would not have any meaning to the wolves because it is a very human name...not a wolfish one. In theory, that could contradict established canon...except for the fact that, in Balto 2, Aniu never actually calls Balto anything other than "my son". She never calls him by name. That's a good point. And I'm glad you brought it up, because it won't be too much longer before I get to the point in White Legend Reborn where pups at least become a looming concern. JerseyCaptain wrote: My thoughts were that, at some point, she encountered him in town somewhere, perhaps while he was out looking for something to eat. And, with the innocence of a young child, gave him something...whatever she may have had at the time. Which would have cemented their initial friendship. There is, after all, an affectionate familiarity between them that we can see in those opening scenes. It's not a chance thing where some kid happens to know a stray wolf dog's name. She actually seems to have a knowledge of him...and a comfort level. Again, that presupposes at least one previous encounter we've never seen on-screen. That's a very good point. It brings to mind some fanfic ideas I'd better jot down before I forget them. JerseyCaptain wrote: But this is taking us rather off-subject. It would make for an interesting topic of discussion, however. True, very true. One of us should set up a separate topic on the matter if there isn't one somewhere already.
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Titan Dreamer
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:34 am |
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JerseyCaptain wrote: Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna. That doesn't necessarily mean that he cared about her enough to risk his life for hers. If you met someone once or twice, would you be willing to go hundreds of miles out of your way for them even if you were dying? I mean, sure, dogs love people unconditionally. But there is no proof whatsoever that Rosy was anything more than a casual acquaintance to Balto. And if she had interacted with him several times, chances are Jenna would have as well (given her inseparability with Rosy). But she seems surprised when she first sees how he's living, suggesting that she didn't know anything about him. That wouldn't happen if she'd seen him several times before.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:38 am |
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Origamist wrote: JerseyCaptain wrote: Agreed...it is plainly evident that Rosie had a familiarity with Balto at the beginning...which presupposes that she knew him before he ever encountered Jenna. That doesn't necessarily mean that he cared about her enough to risk his life for hers. If you met someone once or twice, would you be willing to go hundreds of miles out of your way for them even if you were dying? I mean, sure, dogs love people unconditionally. But there is no proof whatsoever that Rosy was anything more than a casual acquaintance to Balto. And if she had interacted with him several times, chances are Jenna would have as well (given her inseparability with Rosy). But she seems surprised when she first sees how he's living, suggesting that she didn't know anything about him. That wouldn't happen if she'd seen him several times before. Again, this is a worthy discussion, but probably ought to be moved elsewhere. Until then, I am going to refrain from replying, in order to not draw moderator attention.
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Titan Dreamer
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Post subject: Re: Females in the Balto-verse - Are they POINTLESS? Posted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:49 am |
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Yeah, back on topic.
I really don't see how Rosy could be more "useful" than Jenna. First of all, she's young and sick for most of the movie, and she barely even interacts with Balto (that we can see) except for the beginning and very end. Jenna inspired him and encouraged him to go.
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