Animation Source Forums

I really don't understand why it is a problem is some people exlusively render. Now, if they render extremely lazily and looks awful, then there is a problem. But if a person renders well, why does it matter that they only render and keep sending renders in? That like saying people who are amazing at drawing or writing but keeping sending picture after picture or stort after story are in the wrong... Yeah, thats what point number two reads as.

I appreciate everyone's feedback.

I do agree with JC on the fact that most people targeted are making render after render after render. Horrible renders, I might add, not the good ones like Hecate and Sakujo make.

If they want to improve, they need to do something else. Maybe draw?

You can't stay in your comfort zone forever. Sometimes you gotta branch out, and its never a regret when you do. I've lived this lesson so many times I can't even count.

But this site is meant for you to enjoy, and have fun! When it really comes down to it, I don't think making the best renders or drawings is our top priority. It's about enjoying an animated movie we all love. Who knows, I may be completely wrong. This topis IS about renders and drawings after all.

Some people are not artists. Duh. Everyone knows that. But that doesn't mean they aren't allowed to draw if they want. They just gotta know that whatever they put out there, people are gonna see it and comment on it. And they may not be the nicest things, but as long as they are not insulting to the person or their work, then it's fine.

But like I said before, what's insulting to one person, may not be to another person. That's where all the controversy comes in. What is too far and what isn't? The answer is: it depends on the person.

Then, once AGAIN, I need to refocus your attention on two inescapable points:

1. Technically, drawing over and/or recoloring a screen capture (thus, a "render") is tantamount to theft. It is taking property owned by either Universal Studios, Disney or another entity and altering it. That is a violation of copyright and intellectual property laws. And it's done to a ridiculously-excessive level on this site. And this concept applies just as much to those who do it well as for those who do it either passingly or poorly. And the smart ones would agree...because there IS no way to argue this point. None. Which is one reason I don't render (not being a fan artist myself).

2. Doing nothing but renders (and colored line art blanks made by someone else) is not artistic. It's just not. As even as some of those who render have said (and as has been said here), they render because they cannot draw. That once again begs the question of whether or not they OUGHT to be doing this if the point is to "be artistic" or to "try their hand". Or to "learn". I don't know how many different ways I, or UK, or anyone else needs to say this in order for it to sink in. Rendering is NOT learning, and it really is NOT artistic. It's coloring book silliness. Plain and simple. Or, as Imagine just said:


Precisely.


Then let's get to it. This site has lost its focus as a FAN site. There is so much unrelated garbage, that has nothing to do with any of the cartoon movies that it's ridiculous. It's just members slathering the site with their stuff (especially the renders) because, as I have seen Cat wisely say (and I am paraphrasing), "they want the attention, and they cannot get it on a huge site like deviantArt, so they come here instead".

And as has already been discussed here, if renders are against copyright laws, which they are, I will not deny it, then so are any graphics and manips that use the same images.

As for renders being used to be artistic, not everyone does use renders or linearts to be artistic. If a person is an amazing writer and comes up with a good story and wants to express to his/her readers what their characters look like in a different way than a detailed description does, then these are useful. If someone enjoys making fan characters and they are well done, but they are not good at art, they use renders and lineart. No one argueing that renders are just as much art as actual drawing, but that is the exact reason they are here.

I also don't understand what popularity has anything to do with it. Everyone strives to popular, some more than others. Everyone wants to be well known and respected, and yes people go at it the wrong way. What that has to do with the rendering, I don't know.

All this arguing over whether or not people who render can draw is completely missing the point of my original post.
Entirely.

Try thinking of it this way;
[*] Person A draws a picture of their own. A regular art piece from scratch - not rendered or traced or copied. Just a drawing.
[*] Person B likes this drawing and wants to see what their character would look like in it. So they take Person A's drawing and render it into their own character.
[*] Regardless of whether Person B puts "Original picture by Person A!" in their description or not, this is theft and when reported it would be removed.

We're all in agreement here, yes?
The drawing Person A did is their intellectual property and belongs to them and it's not okay for Person B to colour over it without permission.
We're all on the same page at this point, right?

Now.
Read it again, but replace "Person A" with "Disney" and it's the same thing.
The only difference between the two is that Person A is a singular person and Disney is a large company - it's still the intellectual property of theirs.

It's not like there aren't options for the people who can't draw - like I already said, there are hundreds of free linearts which were made specifically FOR this purpose!
For people to colour however they want!

The fact this is encouraged on AS is what bothers me. One or two renders for the hell of it is one thing, flooding the entire website with them is quite another.
I would much rather see coloured free linearts than renders.

I already explained why large companies tend to look the other way, but does that mean we should encourage such?
The argument over who can and cannot draw is something else entirely - and I agree not everyone can draw, nor should just anyone draw if they can't do it or don't really want to - however I disagree with encouraging people to render screenshots when there are plenty of options out there, ones that don't require drawing any more than you would on a render.
There's even such a thing as free backgrounds to put your drawings on so they don't need to be floating in mid air nor od you need to paint your own background.

Closing note: Graphics such as signatures and desktops are also against copyright law, technically this entire site is, but no one has ever tried claiming ownership of them like they do renders.
There was never this level of nonsense on here when renders were not a thing, ever.

Not arguing that. I would agree.


Once again, not artistic? Find another way of expressing oneself. Ask a fan artist for a commission. Something more respectable.


...

...beeeeeeecause rendering is at the very heart of it. As I paraphrased a quote by Cat earlier. They need and want to be SEEN.

(God, I really hate having to debate this in circles, and re-emphasize points made with clarity earlier...eeeeesh)




All this stuff, as I ALSO have said before, distracts from the actual fan art around here. And it cheapens the efforts made by those who actually take. the. freaking. TIME. to do their OWN materials. And THAT, Black Rose, as far as I am concerned, is WRONG. You may not "understand" it, but it rings as clear as a freaking bell for me.

But yes, UK, you have made very valid points there as well. I think it is both actually.

I'm not gonna comment everything that was going on there, but all conclusion I have is that we don't need bad renders and bad renders only!


So instead or filling galleries with renders, we do encourage people to do graphics with balto characters, which, like you said:

So the entire site including borders, banners, boxes is using official Universal trademarks is against the law, so I still do not understand why you find this:
(good)Renders - http://www.animationsource.org/balto/en ... display=18
worse than this:
Retracing official images to their original characters - http://www.animationsource.org/balto/en ... display=18
or this:
Alternating and putting together official screenshots aka. making wallpapers and banners - http://www.animationsource.org/balto/en ... umart=6198


Badoom. I can see no point of this topic.

I in no way ever tried to mask the fact that renders are technically illegal and it is a problem. But if people are going to start pointing out that renders are against the law, than you cannot over-look the other graphics. As far as people "copyrighting" their render, I can understand it to an extent. If someone does a really good render, like Cat since she seems to be out go to example, and someone uses her render and just recolors it, I can see why she would get mad. Instead of people water-marking their renders, they should just ask that no one use their render like a blank render. It is hard to judge if someone is "stealing" a render because it is just a recolored screenshot, but some people do have a destinct style to their rendering that make it obvious.

I don't think we can just throw rendering out the window and tell people to use line-art. Coloring a line-art and rendering are two different things. When coloring a line-art, the artist usually does not allow any editing to their original picture, so if your character happens to have a torn ear or a missing tail, you may not be able to express that without the original artist getting all huffy that you changed their line-art. Renders have a lot more freedom, and as best seen through Cat's work, sometimes you cannot tell that the dog underneath the color is Balto or Jenna or Steele. Argue this point all you want, but colored linearts and renders are two different things. They just are.

I would argue that renders are not at the heart of the popularity problem. I personally don't think there is much of a problem. I mean, there is a problem with AS being flooded with bad creations EVERYWHERE on the site, and people do send in a ton of crappy stuff to here their friends say "That's amazing!" But I think they all know that they are not popular in the eye of eveyone else. I think the "popularity" problem is a "praise" problem. People here are addicted to hereing how awesome their crappy stuff is. Crappy arts, crappy fiction, crappy graphics, crappy characters, crappy roleplays, but not just crappy renders.

Yes, rendering take less skill that some doing their own drawings, but not everyone has the skill to do their own pictures. No one is forcing you to draw in you don't want to, so stop trying to force other people to.

If I may quote the bottom of the main pages:


Regardless of how "legal" the entire site is, it's obvious the creators of the movies spent a lot of time and money to make quality animation--and this goes for 2D and CGI movies. So, the way I see it, the least we could do is show some respect by taking time to make clean renders.
There's a reason Universal, DreamWorks, Disney, etc. haven't gone after these sites because of copyright. They know it's a fansite, and I'm sure they like having their work advertised at no cost to them.

Rendering into your own characters is fine, as long as it's done well and has something to do with movie characters (parents, fan-pups/cubs/colts/whatever). But it's not hard to do a good job.