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how could that he left the pride lands be possible ?

The life as a royal could not have suited him, and he preferred to live as a rogue. It isn't uncommon, even in Africa, where the male cubs, alpha/king or not, leave the pride to live on their own. Would you want to be king/queen of the pridelands? Sure but with all the enemies against you, prey your pride has to eat, laws to make and obey, and everything else that rests on a royal's shoulders? I, personally, wouldn't want to be in charge of the pride and all of the pridelands.

But that wouldn't make sense to Kopa's character, for in the books he is very eager to become king, while he also looks the same age with Kovu, thus we'd have to have seen him in the movie if he was to exists in its story.



And you might miss the common sense and a fact that sending out a tiny meerkat and a slow-witted warthog would not prevent the child from getting hurt or being murdered or running away. Which the movie also literallty showed; Pumbaa and Timon were looking after her but she always ran off AND got herself almost killed. Hence, if Simba had a lost/murdered child in his past, he would've done better than that.



You might have missed the discussion Nala and Simba have right after Simba shouts after Kiara to stay on the path he'd marked for her. That discussion has nothing to do with Scar and Mufasa. If his "over-protectiveness" was out of a murdered/lost child, that would've been the topic of discussion. But it wasn't because there was nothing to his protectiveness but his own childhood nature and his paranoia of a fangirl of Scsr's.



I think you contradict yourself there. You first parade in detail about a tragic loss of a child being the only reason and then say it could never have happened. And indeed, he hated Zira so much and didn't want Kiara near the Outlands simply because he was paranoid because Zira loved and sided with Scar. There was no need for a crime.

As in I don't see any holes in the official storyline. I mean holes that would need additional characters like Kopa would be. In fact adding him creates tons of plot holes and illoginessess into an otherwise logic story.



Lol. It doesn't mean anything. Zira was never mentioned in the Six New Adventures because those books were written long before any sequel films were even thought of and also written by completely different people than the film. That's ALL there is to it.

But that's a good point to poke a millionth gaping hole into the popular Zira-was-exiled-for-killing-Kopa idea. But, as pointed out in the beginning of this post, seeing to Kopa's personlity/attitude about kingship and his and Kovu's design similarities, there is no way to have Kopa part of the story as a disappeared character.

There just isn't because Simba's Pride's story was written so that there is no way to logically include an older sibling - it was written so because its creators didn't want her to have siblings.

Oh boy..



As was Simba, but as he got older, be told Nala that he no longer wanted to be king - even if it was for different reasons.



If Simba had "done better then that" and sent a lioness or himself to go with Kiara, the story would have gone nowhere. Since he sent Pumbaa and Timon, they got distracted and Kiara was able to slip away whereas if he sent a lion that never would have happened. Sure she wouldn't have encountered Zira and that would make a boring movie, eh?



No, actually, I didn't miss that. As they are talking, Nala points out that Kiara is a lot like Simba and they discuss how Simba put them in danger all the time. Who cause the 'danger'? Scar, of course.



And so why would Simba be so worried that Zira would kill Kiara? As you said earlier, Zira was aiming to kill Simba, not Kiara or Kopa, and the only reason she was banished was because she was a follower of Scar - not because she was a murderer. If you watch the first movie, the lions, including Mufasa, Sarabi, and the rest of the pride, don't think Scar would be capable of what he did. So why on earth would they think Zira would do the same without her beloved Scar?




And that is exactly why there was no Zira or any other outsiders in the first film. The first film was created long before the books or the sequel was made so they couldn't possibly have had characters in a movie that hadn't even existed yet.

You quoted but completely ignored the Kovu/Kopa designs that makes your theory flawed/impossible. Why? I mean, he couldn't be older than Kovu because Kovu was born when Scar was still alive (as the movie more or less states while stating nothing to contradict it), and he couldn't be much younger than Kovu because of the look-alike designs. And as Kopa at that design was with his family and eager to become king, he'd have to be literally there during the movie's timeline indtead of left before it.



Which is why there was never a lost/murdered child. If they wanted such an event to fit into the story they would've written a completely different script!

I don't even understand, as you are one of those who admit that Kopa doesnt' exist in the story, why then are you so desperate to force Kopa fit into something he was never meant to fit in? As in why aren't you, instead, trying to knock some sense into the Kopa theorizing fans and promote the only plausible way of including Kopa; having Kopa born AFTER the movie's events. Even though that too would be a logic fail, at least it would be much less so.



Simba caused the dangers by choosing to deliberately disobey Mufasa / failing to grasp the true concept of bravery. And also, they were discussing dangers as in many occasions whereas we have proof of only one danger set by Scar and no more. And also, they did not know Scar had anything to do with what happened at the Elephant Graveyard. I repeat; the discussion had nothing to do with Scar. Just cub Simba's personality.



Because Zira sided with and loved Scar who had proven capable of a murder in efforts to gain power. And because Zira had announced her beloved Scar had chosen Kovu to become king which he would not get to be if the rightful king's heir was alive. And because Zira stared at Kiara menacingly and saying "Oh no, Simba, we have barely begun."



Where's your proof that no one of them thought Scar would be capable of what he did? Mufasa obviously and naturally would not believe such of his own brother but it doesn't mean everyone believed the same. We see the pride crying over Mufasa's death but we don't get to hear what's going around their heads, while there was nothing they could do to stop Scar from claiming the crown in the given situation.

As for Zira, they'd had to have known Zira for a time, watched her reactions to Scar and lived with her. And after Scar reveals the truth about himself, their possible suspicions would naturally increase into a belief that she might do the same. Especially after Scar getting killed. Hence, the exile BEFORE anything bad happened.

What do look-alike designs have to do with the age of a cub? Kovu was most likely about ten months old by the time he met Kiara, because he had already begun training with Zira and the fact that he was much older than Kiara in the first place. Kopa was born shortly after Simba took priderock and that was shortly after Kovu's own birth. Around twelve to fourteen months, male cubs start to become independent from their prides. Unless Zira did kill him, which, now thought about, is a poorly supported theory, he probably went rogue a little early.



I never "admitted" that Kopa didn't exist in the story. I said he didn't exist in the movies, obviously, but he was still a part in the Lion King storyline/timeline.




Simba didn't deliberately disobey his father, it was Scar who tricked him by saying "Only the bravest lions go there." and Simba wanted to prove to his father that he really was brave. And children hardly ever grasp the true concept of everything, Simba couldn't have an adult mind as a cub. And Simba and Nala are smart enough to realize it was all Scar. They aren't stupid.



When I asked, "And so why would Simba be so worried that Zira would kill Kiara?", it was intended to be before they encountered Zira and she made it clear that she was planning something against the pride.



If your king, who you loved and trusted didn't think someone was capable of such terrible treachery, wouldn't you believe the same? Since Mufasa refused to think his brother could be such a tyrant, the lionesses most likely believed the same. The entire pride didn't believe it until it was thrown in their faces, when Scar took the throne and brought the hyenas into the pridelands and showed everyone what he was really capable of.

A lot if the said look-alikes are stuffed into one story.



And there you're stating your own opinion and claiming it as a fact.
It may not have been that shortly in either event. Because all we know is that Scar chose Kovu and that Kovu was the last born before Simba exiled them, and the first film fast-forwarded an unknown period of time between Simba reclaiming the throne and the cub's birth.

The minimum age difference of Kovu and the cub can be 4 months. 4 months age difference & Kopa in the books appearing exactly like Kovu forces Kopa to be at home during the movie's time. Which means that Kiara had to be born and growing up while Kopa was still around, yet he doesn't appear nor is even mentioned in the film nor is Kiara in the books. Hence, adding Kopa CREATES plot holes and contradictions, it doesn't fill/fix any.

And the more months you leave between Kovu and the cub's birth while saying it's Kopa, the less sense it makes with the looks matters; as Kopa and Kiara obviously would not be litter mates and thus would have at least a year between their births and then Kiara growing up for some months...The timeline would extent to waaaaay too lengthy one for Kovu to look the way he does the day he meets Kiara.



You can ramble as much as you want but Mufasa saying literally "you must never go there" and Simba choosing to go there anyway, does have Simba deliberately disobeying. A child is capable of gerasping the true meaning of the words "must never go". Especially a pre-teen like Simba. (The script states he was a pre-teen.) And Scar didn't trick him, he simply provoked him. As in Simba still had every chance in the world to choose not to go but he chose to go against his father's will --> he deliberately disobeyed.

Scar's words did not cause the danger as there is no real danger in simply saying/hearing. Only in doing. Simba's own choice caused the danger. The same choice could've happened any time out of simple curiosity or out of hearing the truth about the place from somehwere else.



And I addressed that with the first sentence. I repeat; because Zira sided with and loved Scar who had proven capable of a murder in efforts to gain power/the throne. Which Zira could not gain if Simba's child was alive.



Now you're just trying to turn them into mindless sheep. Love and trust for the king would keep them from acting out. They can and are likely to still have their own feelings and opinions about the person, because they're looking at him from a completely different point of view and with completelty different heart-set than his brother.

What?



The scene where Fluffy is presented shows the pridelands starting to bud and slowly grow back, so it must be about a month or two after Scar was killed. Just because they look the same age doesn't necessarily make them the same age. Also, in a deleted scene of the movie, it shows Kovu catching a termite and letting it go, which results in Zira scolding him for being soft. Then Nuka and Vitani come into view explaining how they just saw the presentation of Kiara. Kovu already had his hair tuft so he would be far older than Kiara, as would Kopa be.

Here is another possibility of Kopa having vanished, since Zira killing him and him turning rogue won't work for you. Kopa could have strayed away from pride rock and gotten killed in a stampede. There is another deleted part of the film, never animated but cut from the script where Scar throws Nala's younger brother, Mheetu, into the gorge in attempt to lure Simba to his death by the stampeding wildebeests. This also happened in Tarzan. A newborn monkey was killed by the stampeding elephants.




I only "ramble" as much as you, who so desperately seems to need to have the last word in this discussion. And I bet it was Simba's choice to have is father killed by Scar and being chased and almost killed by Hyenas as well, whom all resulted from Scar's doing.




Again, What?



But, I am sure, the film makers intended Scar's treachery to be a total surprise to the whole pride.

When you put two exactly alike cubs into the same story, a viewer is going to assume they are the same age unless you literally explain that they're different age, but they couldn't be that far apart with that much alike development. And as four months does a lot of difference in a lion cub's physical development and four months is the minimum age difference Kovu and the cub must have...



No, the recovering happens fast-forwarded way as in the recovery leads up to the scene wherein Fluffy is presented. The scene where Fluffy is presented has the Pridelands already budded and grown back. It's already recovered including the animals returned. That's why it's in fact an unknown time; could be short, could be long.



Remark the word 'DELETED' + the fact it wasn't coloured or even really finished in lining. Whatever is seen in it, doesn't necessarely apply to the final version. In the final version they had Kovu look like that when Kiara was older, which means they probably intented Kovu to look and be younger at Kiara's birthday than he was in the version wherein the deleted scene would've been.



The Laserdisc information on that Scar/Mheetu/Simba version is not that specific, so half of that was just fanfiction and not a fact. And there would be a thousand ways to kill Kopa without relating it to Zira. But a cold hard fact is that Kopa never existed in the movies' storyline which thus doesn't leave room for any way of dying/disappearing.



Because my words about this topic always end up with the facts and common sense instead of wild fanfiction theories. And it's good to end discussions/debates with facts and common sense.



That event is irrelevant. We were talking about the dangers Simba got himself and Nala into and Nala was not involved in that one - plus that one had nothing to do with Simba's personality but simply his trusting of his uncle which any child would if they've not given any reason not to.



That was an answer to your question of why would Simba fear Zira would kill Kiara even before they encountered her and cub Kovu.



That's nice but you being sure doesn't make it a fact. So I'd recommend you'd phrase your words ”I think” or ”I believe” or ”in my opinion”.

As for facts...Let's end this pointless discussion/debate with the fact: ”What's the major difference between this film and the original?” ---> ”It starts off where the first film left us with a twist – you think it's a king but it's a queen!” (Andrew Collins, Kovu's lead animator.) Source: this magazine article

That makes it a fact that Kiara and Fluffy ARE the same cub in the sequel's story, which means that Simba and Nala had only one cub, which means that Kopa doesn't exist in the movies' storyline. Which means that there is no logical way to add Kopa between Kovu and Kiara, nor at all.

If you look at the background during that scene, the grass is fairly low, trees are missing clumps of leaves, the ground has patches of growth. This clearly is a part in time one or two months from when Simba took pride rock. Just because the animals and herds returned doesn't mean everything grew back and is perfectly normal now.




It was deleted due to time constraints.



I found a picture of Kovu, when he first meets Kiara, and the picture of Kopa. Kovu is clearly much older than Kopa, having a larger mane and fur tufts on his elbows. Kopa only has a small tuft of fur on his head - clearly showing that he is nowhere near the same age as Kovu. Kovu was also already loosing the black ring on his ears as well, Kopa still had them.






Thats what I said earlier. Simba trusted his uncle, so he was easily influenced and tricked into doing things that Scar told him to do.




I meant this part ^. Zira could not gain what? It was talking about Scar gaining the throne from Zira gaining something. The throne as well? Well that just points to the theory that Zira killed Kopa? I'm confused.




But in the books, it says that Fluffy is Kopa. Also, I bought three Lion King storybooks published before the sequel and they all say "The new prince of the pridelands." and "Rafiki presented the newborn son of King Simba and Nala". These are ones written by Disney, not an author who asked for permission. Sure after the sequel was made, the books were changed to "princess" and "daughter" but the books that still say the masculine terms obviously state that the cub was expected to be a male.

if your a kopa fan , just say.

I'm not necessarily a fan of Kopa, but I guess you could call it that.

it just seems like your trusting the books , witch are wrong.
edit : I'll go find all of my books and say the quotes.i'll even find outsider books.
1.grolier 1994 lion king book , ''as the future lion king ''
2.2003 little golden book , ''welcomed her''
3. 1994 by jane sclcenburger ''him up for all to see.''
4.1994 big golden book ''there the son of simba'' and ''future king.''
5.1995 the art of the lion king mini ''a new CUB''
6.2009 the lion king ''new princess'' and ''the daughter''
7.2010 the lion king by paragon ''simba and nala's cub''
8.1994 the lion king by gina inonilla ''little prince'' ''he'' ''the son of king simba and queen nala.'' and ''future king ''
9.1994 the lion king by golden '' he'' ''he'' and ''new lion king''
10.2010 disney friends coloring book ''king simba and queen nala had a daughter.''
11.1994 tlk look and find ''like his father before him'' http://www.animationsource.org/board/download/file.php?id=27217&mode=view
do you have any TLK books ? if so can you please scan the pages of them ?
did you see anyone that made the movie make these books ?

What do you mean the books are wrong?

they are wrong because they where not made by the people that made the movie.
1.grolier 1994 lion king book , ''as the future lion king ''
2.2003 little golden book , ''welcomed her''
3. 1994 by jane sclcenburger ''him up for all to see.''
4.1994 big golden book ''there the son of simba'' and ''future king.''
5.1995 the art of the lion king mini ''a new CUB''
6.2009 the lion king ''new princess'' and ''the daughter''
7.2010 the lion king by paragon ''simba and nala's cub''
8.1994 the lion king by gina inonilla ''little prince'' ''he'' ''the son of king simba and queen nala.'' and ''future king ''
9.1994 the lion king by golden '' he'' ''he'' and ''new lion king''
10.2010 disney friends coloring book ''king simba and queen nala had a daughter.''
11.1994 tlk look and find ''like his father before him'' download/file.php?id=27217&mode=view
do you have any TLK books ? if so can you please scan the pages of them ?
did you see anyone that made the movie make these books ?