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Well I personally prefer a render with hard work behind it than I scribbled doodle with zero effort. I would rather see someone draw their own character than do a render or worse color a lineart, but if someone does not have that artistic ability, they should not be looked down upon for using these aids.

I don't really see it as a aid but more of a crutch.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

It's nice to see that some can agree to disagree. Others, however, either cannot or will not.

Personally, as someone who renders, I don't mind them in the least, as long as they are done well, and by well I mean not scribbled outside the lines. Even if the lines aren't perfect, as long as they... match up with the original image, there should be no problem.

Didn't any one of you, and I mean EVERYONE who has posted on this topic, trace using a blank piece of paper and a coloring book page or even the coloring book cover with a pencil when you were a kid? I know I did.

Well, rendering is the EXACT same thing, and to criticize badly, or worse, put down others who do that is wrong on many levels. So, what was right for you when you were young, is wrong for the young generation of today? That is incredibly hypocrticial and quite cruel. It's, as some people say in America, 'The pot calling the kettle black'. It's wrong, even if you are expressing your opinion, but doing so with the intent, direct or indirect to hurt another...

Let people render, as long as they do it well. Griping and complaining gets you nowhere and makes you look incredibly stupid. Now I am not referring to all of you, just a few. It may sound cold and unfitting for a moderator to go that far, but it's true. "If the shoe fits, wear it."

A Man once said, "Judge not, and you will not be judged."

Leave well enough alone.

No, not that I recall, I actually colored the pages.



Yes, that is true, BUT let's realize that tracing is that of what a young child does, and probably because they want to draw it to look just like the image in that of the book. For instance, it wasn't tracing, but I remember being at some sort of family party, and there was a painting of a dragon that one of my step cousins had painted, and I liked it and wanted to draw it myself. Well I did, but guess what? I couldn't get it right, and I was getting frustrated that my drawing looked nothing like the painting. I was at least around the age of six or seven. What does that have to do with tracing? I wanted my drawing to look just like that painting, but due to my limited skill at the time, I couldn't. This is why I believe kids trace. Like I said, they want it to look like the picture they see. Is tracing a crime? No, not at all, any child that is wanting to draw will start off this way, but there IS a point in time where that must stop.

There is nothing wrong with criticizing someone. You need to realize that tracing images from books, pictures, wherever, is what a young child does. And when I mean child, I'm going to say around the age of seven. But most people on AS are usually nine years of age and up. If anyone is ever going to improve on their art, or even anything in life, they need to be criticized.


I can easily say the same for rendering.

I'll never be able to stress enough: Some people just can't draw. No matter what. End of story. People can go their entire life, practicing, practicing, practicing and never be able to draw good enough. I just don't get it. The same people who go around criticizing renders saying you should draw everything rather than "being lazy", also go around criticizing people who actually try. I've seen countless comments and rants saying how people who are bad at anatomy shouldn't even try, or should practice more, when they're never even given a chance to improve. It just peeves me off. No one's that perfect, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm not defending bad renders, but honestly, everyone has to start somewhere. If you'd like to call it a crutch, then a crutch it shall be. But a crutch is also considered an aid to the injured, is it not? And the "injured" in this case are those who never have a good ability to draw - no matter how long or hard they practice. Think of your own talents. Even those of you who are good at drawing, you have to be bad at something, correct? In my case, I'm bad at sports. I've been practicing basketball for years and yet I'm still barely good enough. I'll never match up to my peers or classmates, and yes I've tried my hardest, but it's just not my strong suit. The same goes for people who are bad at drawing. Renders are there to help those who cannot draw on their own express their creativity. Now whether it's too wild for your taste, that's totally up to you, but it's not right to criticize their point of view.

Everyone's good at something, and everyone's bad at something. Some are better at more than one thing and some are worse at more than one thing. My point is, who are you to judge? Renders can be used the right way, and it's sad that all of them are being categorized into one giant mess of 'lazy'.

Well well well...this sure has turned predictably tense in the last several posts. Be that as it may...


Black Rose, a person with a fair degree of intelligence and wisdom can actually, and fairly easily, discern between plain old criticism and opinion, and then flaming and bullying. They are very different things, and only a bonehead would lump them together as all being equatable or identical. I am not suggesting you per se, but there ARE people who have posted here (and I say that as much because the person I am quoting below has laid similar harsh comments upon other participants in this topic--as to the fact that it is TRUE) who seem to have a perplexing inability to distinguish between those things. And it becomes a rather significant problem when someone of that ilk serves as a moderator on a site like this! Because their misinterpretations and then their piss-poor handling of these incidences leads to far more drama than is necessary. Sometimes they trip that drama on their own trying to either play "white knight" or just plain "boss". And that is a pathetic (yeeees, pathetic) way of managing something.

Frankly, I COULD give the same opinions face-to-face that I do on the internet. And I could deal with them (though I wouldn't shrink from them, you may be sure). One wonders whether or not some of these "white knights" and/or self-appointed (or official) "bosses" could. Somehow, I highly doubt that.



Yeah, I did. But the only time that anything my stuff was posted for all to see (whether or not I wanted it to be) was when I was in GRADE SCHOOL, and it went up on a bulletin board. And that was the same for every kid. When I was a teenager and a young adult, I was far more discerning about what I would share and what I felt wasn't worth sharing. Of course, there was no internet when I was a teenager, but we still had ways of displaying our creations. It simply wasn't as grandiose as the internet. As a young adult, for me? That's when the internet became a phenomenon. But I still wasn't engaging in bad or even crappy material and then looking for any site I could to dump all of it onto so everyone would pay attention to me.


You reeeeeaaaaally need to sort out this not-so-terribly-latent passive-aggressiveness that you have for anyone who even gently offers any form of criticism or opinion, let alone something more substantial. It's disturbing. Really. And a very poor trait for a moderator to have...because you have a tendency to see every criticism or opinion as an attack. And that's really sad. And annoying. And unprofessional. And extraordinarily-poor moderating.


Golly...you sure do love tossing quotes around willy-nilly, hm?

Now, beyond what I have already done, and only because you gave me the justification with your own idiotic and thinly-veiled attacks upon "a few" of us (which is far worse and far crueler than anything WE have done in commenting on fan creations, you unbelievable hypocrite you )

Try these on for size...and I suggest that you think HARD on them. And if you don't get what these quotes mean, or how they apply to YOU and perhaps one or two of your cohorts up there on staff, then I guess I've proven my point quite nicely, hmm? Yeees...





And I will stress again: some people shouldn't draw. CatWhoHas14Tails and several other good fan artists would say the same thing. And the same logic applies even to renders. I'm not sure why you're not understanding the points already made. And really, let's not lump everything together again, shall we? No one, and I mean NO ONE has categorized ALL renders "into one giant mess of 'lazy'."

Sheesh already.

Thank you so much for stressing my point and yours, Moki. I needed the extra boost.

What is it gonna take for you guys to give up THIS pointless and humiliating pursuit? If you don't like it, why not go somewhere else?

NEWSFLASH: NO ONE is perfect, not even you Mighty, and yes, this includes JC and UK. Stop acting so holy. Lower yourselves from your presumed exalted positions and see your ways from the younger members' point of view.

The reason you don't remember what it was like - what they're going through now, or rather what you're putting them through - is because you refuse to remember what it was like. You've grown up, you think you're better, which doesn't help anyone.

Not everyone can draw, NO ONE measures up, no one is good enough, and you're stressing that everyone can be good enough in every area of life if they apply themselves. That is not always the case. I know from experience, as I'm sure you do too.

Yes, we have an absent webmaster, which really does stink. Yes, we have a small moderation staff, which also stinks. But unless Steet recommits himself, we're stuck even with a small sliver of hope for some kind of improvement.

But will not happen completely if certain areas, or rather, only one area - the renders - are being targeted by people either wanting them gone or DEMANDING 100% perfection, which is exactly what is going on here, even if some cannot or refuse to see it.

There is more to life than picking on the innocent. Find it. Bitter behavior only destroys in the end.

If you cannot find a solution that DOES NOT involve getting rid of renders, which does no one any good, especially those who SIMPLY cannot draw - something you apparently do not understand or have no clue what it's really like - then what is the point of this topic other than to complain about an issue that isn't even an issue? Because you don't see perfection?

That's pretty low, even some of those who used to be mods and didn't do their own jobs 100% perfectly. Hey, it's true.

And JC, calling me a hyopcrite, and actually laughing? Now that's low, even for you. You're just ticked off because I don't see things the way you do.

Well, you see Brown dear, you gave me the in with your bawwwing and your cruelty. Or, to coin a phrase:





Let me throw you out another handy-dandy quote to ponder upon, m'kay?

I don't think you quite get it.

My anger towards renders stems from the fact EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG RENDERS FLIPPING EVERYTHING.
You say "If they do it well then leave them be" - THEY ARE NOT DOING IT WELL.

The VAST majority of renders on AS SUCK - you say "Not everyone can draw!" - Not everyone can render either. The only difference is if you report a bad render you get "Don't be mean!" as a reply, which to be frank, is stupid.

When renders started it was a case of "Oh, that's new. Huh." and then everyone realized they don't NEED to try drawing things, they can just colour in screenshots. In one way that's all fine and dandy, but this site is FULL of them.
Myself and my co-builder on SpiritSource were doing a "weekly picks" of fan content a while ago and I had one hell of a time finding ANYTHING that was good enough quality to sit beside the other fan creations I'd found in the images section.
Actual graphics were near enough non-existant, the renders were poor quality or were just a coloured in base of a blank render someone else did.

I'm also rather offended that you, Brown Wolf, seem to do nothing but try lecturing those of us who don't like these things by telling us "They're only young, you need to lower your standards, stop acting so holy, why don't you just leave then?"
You need to get the hell off your high horse.
I'm sick to death of seeing you swan about degrading the opinions of some but "protecting" the opinions of others.
You all say "You might upset people guys, stop being such trolls" - I suppose the fact that those of us who are UPSET over people not caring about improving their creations or the quality of the site as a whole doesn't count right?
The fact it bothers us doesn't matter huh?

And I'm fed up of seeing that stupid "Tracing colouring books is the same thing!" argument too.
1: Yeah, I did do that. When I was 7 years old.
2: Colouring books are not the same as movie screenshots. Images in colouring books are made specifically to be mass produced and let people mess about with. Movie screenshots are intellectual property.
Do you people not realize the more content that is pirated on AS the more likely it is these companies (especially Disney which is notorious for being touchy about it's property) WILL file a Cease & Desist against the site?
They generally look the other way over fan sites and fan art, fan sites are a hub for their fans to communicate and fan art is original work by independent artists and unless they start selling it for lots of money they leave it be.
But people are claiming these renders as their own.
I've seen people put big lettered "THIS IS MINE DO NOT STEAL!!!" under their renders in their galleries.
People make blank ones with logos or watermarks on them going "If you use you must credit me!!".

I honestly would be happy if renders were wiped off the site, not gonna lie.
But I understand people enjoy making them for whatever reason, just for the love of everything good stop making this site Render Source and getting really uppity over these stupid things.

I feel that if I post again I will only be repeating myself. I have made the points I wanted to make:

1. Renders are not the only part of this fansite that is surrounded by garbage that has made it's way on the site.

2. Bad renders need to go because they are giving everyone who renders a bad name. And even if it wasn't meant, there IS a general feeling on AS that renders are only done by lazy people. It doesn't matter if anyone straight out said it or not, it is true and no one can deny it.

3. For critisism, I did not mean that the Mods and other intelligent people would not know the difference between opinoin and flaming. The general population of AS, most of which are proven to be immature by their bad images, arts, and fictions, would probably whine and complain if their comment was delete. "But it was my opinoin that this person is worse than a two year old and should never draw again!" While critisism DOES need to be allowed, opinoins should not because bullying and flaming, in a twisted way, IS an opinoin.

4. Renders should have a bit more respect around here because there are some people, few as they may be, who do decent renders. I personally the standards of some are too high, but it is true that most of the renders on AS are just awful to even look at. Hopefully, if the committee goes well, this will no longer be a problem.

Beautiful, UK. XD BEAUTIFUL!


It's the classic "double standard", UK. And lately...most especially lately, that has been the modus operandi for a couple of mods around here at least. I mean, we could say that they're not really at fault for taking liberties where no enforcement from higher up keeps them towing the mark. But really, they're not automatons, and they're not children. Yes, I DO blame them of course, but I also blame steet. His reticence, his absence, and his "I don't give a crap" attitude about the English side of his site, at least, and his total lack of trust and willingness to bring on some coding and oversight assistance is HIS fault entirely. And it sickens me no end when people act like white knights for him, and try to castigate members who hold him to blame for the mounting plethora of problems here. I mean, am I really saying anything in that which hasn't already been said by tons of people tons of times? XD

Yes...a blatant double standard is in effect. You can see it even in the insults and hatred Brown Wolf slung around in her previous posts. Now, had any of US spoke like that to so much as ONE member, we'd find ourselves banned right now, I can promise you that. And the posts would be quickly erased (even though any posted reactions to it would remain up).

And now watch what happens next. After responding with some furious tirade, either she will lock this topic, or she'll convince a mod friendly to her to do so and then claim later she had nothing to do with it being locked. That's another standard tactic of a moderator who falls under this level of scrutiny but gets annoyed because she/he starts losing the argument and looking bad. Get the last digs in, and quickly silence the topic so no one can counter what was last said. It's weak, and it's tantamount to an admission of guilt. You watch...it's only a matter of time.

Dudes...really?

I know people have different opinions on this topic but...

Can't we just calmly discuss stuff? Is that really possible anymore with this group?

You can argue with me all you want, but I can tell that this is getting a TEENY bit out of hand.

You guys seriously need a hug. All of you.

Ok, onto seriousness.

I agree with all of you on the fact that we shouldn't be insulting towards people, but at the same time, we shouldn't have to be punished for voicing our honest opinions.

I remember a sitcom I used to watch where someone's best friend made a really ugly sweater, and asked for their honest opinion on it. At first they said it was lovely when it really wasn't, so the friend had her wear the sweater all day, since it was so "beautiful". After getting bullied by some of her classmates, she finally told her friend that the sweater was hideous. It hurt the friend, yes, and she exclaimed that she worked so hard on it, but after taking a second look, she realized that the sweater could be improved, or look better on someone else, namely the family dog xD

Everyone reacts differently to one thing. Say, the republican side won the next election. Or, there's a brand new Twilight book in the making. Or more vegetables instead of pizza and cheesebugurs have been placed in your school's cafeteria. Some would be esctatic, some would be furious, and some just could not care less.

As for this issue, everyone has different maturity and sensitivity levels. People of all ages are alllowed to be on here, so there's a ton of variation.

Assuming that people with not-so-great art are more sensitive and should be left alone, is wrong. At least in my book. BUT Assuming that the child would not/should not be offended by your comment, is wrong too. Assuming in general is kinda wrong, if used in this sense.

There IS a fine line between bullying and voicing your opinion. No doubt about that. It's just that for every person, that line is placed differently on the scale. If you made the exact same comment on two different image galleries, you would likely get two different reactions. Those reactions should determine if your comment was too offending, not the assumption that these people will be offended.

I have an idea. If you post a comment on someone's render that the creator doesn't agree with, they CAN ask if the comment should be removed, but the creator AND you have to BOTH agree that it can be taken down in order for the action to be performed. And of course, you are allowed to explain yourself and your comment, saying you weren't trying to be mean, but just making them see that they need improvement.

The fact that every expert was once a beginner, isn't really a fact that you can escape. Because its true. But it doesn't mean that you can lie and say that's the best darn render you've ever seen. In order for them to be the expert, you need to give them guidance, or at least say what needs to be improved on. Usually, they can figure it out on their own, but if not, then make them see. Don't assume that kids are stupid either, but I don't think any of you are doing that, which is good.

In conclusion, people are different. That's why we fight, that's why there is such a thing as an opinion. But this is never going to end unless we come to some sort of an agreement. Which, honestly, I don't know if we ever will. But can't we at least step in the other person's shoes once in a while?

I know my post was kinda all over the place, I blame that for just waking up, and working on this for the past half hour. You can react to this any way you want, I respect you full heartedly!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm hungry and have some donuts to eat! Yum!

EDIT: oh, this topic is gonna be locked? Well that's a half hour out the window xD

I think this whole thing is way overhyped. Sure there are lousy renders out there; there are lousy drawings too. Big. Stinking. Whoop.

The implication earlier that rendering is "immature" is childish flame-baiting, really, since artistic skill does not correlate with age. There are eight-year-olds who can draw with amazing skill, and there are geezers who couldn't draw a circle if you gave them a compass.

What real difference does the presence or absence of unskilled art make to anyone's life? If your enjoyment of the site rests entirely in heckling them, then one might well ask if they're what needs to be removed.

Imagine and DT, I know officailly love you both. You both have said exactly what I feel in a way better than I could have and tried to do. I really don't have anything to add to what DT has said because that is just perfect.

Imagine, I do like the idea of removing the comment when both side agree. I'm not sure how well that would work because there are people who are stubborn and think they are always right and would never admit that thet should not have commented whatever harsh thing they said. Good idea in theory, but in practice... I'm not so sure.

It's not the fact that there simply are renders on here, DT. You've missed the point, because you probably just perused the posts casually rather than in detail. To summarize (for the umpteenth time):


1. This site is being overrun with poor-quality renders, often with horrendous colorings, heaving and klunky lines, and an obvious inability to stay WITHIN those lines, even when they are re-drawn to five times their original width. If you don't see these things as a problem, and if you'll excuse the expression, you're nuts.

2. Several members are coming on here and rendering exclusively. That IS a problem. Especially when they keep barraging the site with render after render after render after render...

3. Several members' opinions and critiques of these renders (as well as art submissions which are really quite bad) are being spin-doctored SOMEHOW into trolling, flaming, hateful comments. Which is bull. And their comments and activities are being (ARE BEING) minutely scrutinized by two specific moderators who seem to have made it their sole responsibility to play white knights and be "bosses". Do I really need to quote one of them? Okay (this is from another recent rant topic): "Guess you could say that I'm not your average mod. For me, it's about being in charge. I swear.". I don't know if you see that as a problem, but I should think anyone with even a modicum of common sense surely would.

4. The overall point of this topic is renders, but the question of quality and abundance also encompasses art submissions and line art colorings. I've said it here, and others have too.

5. This is a fan site. Not a "let's all color!" site. Perhaps Disney has a web page for that, hm? Or the Sesame Street site. Befitting the age-related concept of coloring things in that one did not create oneself.



There wouldn't be a problem at ALL, Imagine, if those who would like to post critiques or opinions without constantly being harangued and harassed about it could do so. Those people are not posting such things exclusively. But the site rules give them the RIGHT to post that stuff, and to be constantly harassed by a couple of mods and some self-appointed white knights because of those posts is cause for conflict. If those posts and their owners weren't constantly targeted, we wouldn't have much of a problem, now would we?