Animation Source Forums

Well, let me give you a little taste on the artist who has been stolen from's point of view.

I think what Silver Deni is trying to say is that no matter what people use for watermarks, theives will still go through the lengths to use their computer skills to color over the copyright. Now sometimes it is with different color to make the pictures "they're own" but it is not theirs The picture itself is still there, the character is just in a different color.

And when you say that people who were "supposedly stealing" asked the artists themselves, just so you know, no one asked me permission to use my pictures whatsoever. One girl did, but that was only because someone caught her using her own copyrights on artwork that wasn't hers.

Now if anyone were to ask me, or any artist, if they could use art that wasn't theirs to post it (with good intentions) we would all be fine with it. Artists like that people enjoy our art and want to display it to a wider audience, but only if we're mentioned somewhere in the process.

Now think for a minute, these characters that we artists make are bits and pieces of ourselves. No matter what we do to them, they have a bit of our personality (ourselves) in them. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't make their own drawings to understand, but hear me out.

If you create something that you put yourself into, all of your hard work and effort, whether it be a painting or a mere doodle, and someone steals it, puts their copyrights on them, and butchers every thing about the picture with lies about the truth behind them, an artist has every right to be upset.

Because whoever sees the theif's version first, is most likely going to believe theirs instead of the real thing. It's human nature to believe so, (unless they're being interrogated about it, then they tend to go with the latter being said. But that is a different scenerio.)

Another thing is that people are not just going to stop posting art on a fanart site, just because they're afraid of their pictures being stolen. Fanartists, or any artist for that matter, should feel secure that their art is not going to get stolen and butchered. They post their art to get recognition, yes, but only if their copyrights are on them. If someone puts their copyrights on there and uses it to make themselves look good (which is always the case) that is not recognition for the artist.

A reason artists DON'T post their art is for other's to selfishly use it for themselves, meaning they remove the copyright and merely show the work off, and they don't even have to claim it as theirs. Artists post their art to, more or less, show it off, because if you can draw and know you're good at it, you're going to want to flaunt that talent. And if flaunting isn't the reason, they post their art to get helpful critique on it, to help their art improve for the future.

Now, being the mature and understand person you claim you are, take what I've said into thought and then wonder if the MySpace RPers have the right to use art that isn't theirs.

Well said Cat.

Balto123

Even if the artist did give permission to just one person, removing the watermark is unwise. That person will no doubt post it somewhere online and another person will find it, save it and re-upload it after altering and puting their copyright on it.

Anyways, if these people would just give us the common courtesy of actually asking permission before using the artwork, we most likely would not have a problem with it so long as they leave the watermark/signature on it. Most artists like to keep tabs on their art, I know I do.

I do realise that most of them are just kids who aren't doing any harm but if they don't get in the habit of asking now, later on they could get into legal trouble for this type of thing.

Cat, I'm on your side, mostly (and I did understand what Silver Deni was saying, actually...but I was only responding to one part of what he said...). You don't need to get defensive with me. I truly understand and appreciate how upset you and some of the other artists are over this. I am trying to be a voice of reason, and trying to help resolve these things benevolently, rather than seeing them degenerate into hostility and the eventual loss of the artwork from the internet. Frankly, while I do believe there are some truly EXCELLENT and AMAZING works of art displayed on this site (I do really like your stuff too...honestly. I think it's some of the best stuff on this entire site), I also think some of the other works, of some other artists who have posted their works on Balto Source, are either mediocre or bland (or worse). But hey, that's an opinion...not necessarily a hard fact. "One man's meat is another man's poison", so they say (whomever the hell "they" are...LOL). And hey, no one at all can fault or criticize the artists who produce what I happen to think of as mediocre, bland ("or worse") art for trying. Kudos to them for the effort invested.

After all, I managed to convince the girl, who is on MySpace portraying Kiona, to remove the artwork she took from your page, without your permission (apparently; and I say that because I am not going to take sides...I merely am trying to help resolve things), where all the bitching and bullying of the few artists who came on using false names, unwilling to identify who they really WERE, failed. And all it took was one message to her. A nice message. A REASONABLE message. How hard is that? What does it cost? No sweat, no tears. No fury. Just a few minutes of typing at a keyboard. Pfft.

But the fact remains that there are some selfish people (teenagers or not) on MySpace AND ELSEWHERE ON THE INTERNET who are going to continue to "steal" no matter what you do. It's the nature of the beast, and it certainly is not exclusive to MySpace members! Those people seem to ardently stick to the idea that, since the internet does not fall under the jurisdiction of any one national authority, it would be nearly impossible to enforce any kind of law (including that of plagiarism or stealing). Not everyone here is American, or French, or British, or Canadian, or whatever else. And the laws in each country vary. And the internet has no national identity (even if the primary language in use appears, from my end, to be English).

So I am not your enemy. Nor that of any artist who has posted here or elsewhere. I have been carrying the banner of the artists, on MySpace, as much as I have been going to the defense of MySpacers who have been unfairly criticized or lumped in with those (in a very small minority) who really are "stealing" and perhaps even altering images out of spite, because they feel they "can".

Regards,
BaltoSeppala

Let me also state, emphatically, that I would never take any art directly from this site without first asking permission of the artist. Never. And I would not use it if there were watermarks (colored or not) remaining on it after I secured permission. Though I would happily still display the artist's signature and such. That is their identifier, and it doesn't bother me one iota.

Now...with regard to screen captures? That's a different story entirely. I have seen numerous Balto tribute sites (to mention nothing of tribute sites for any number of other cartoons, movies, etc.) which require the reader to agree to a disclaimer before being able to view pictures that, in effect (or in fact) they agree NOT to use any of the images on their sites. Well, firstly, why the hell else do the web site administrators think they want the images (in most cases)?? Secondly, there is absolutely NO WAY for those administrators to enforce their disclaimer legally. Thirdly, the ONLY owners of those images, no matter who did the work of making a screen capture, are Universal Pictures and Amblin Entertainment. Only THEY can enforce any legal action regarding their properties (or they can try, and probably could easily succeed, given their resources). I understand that it was this kind of thing which eventually brought an end to most Star Wars and Star Trek fan tribute sites. LucasFilms and Paramount Pictures decided they didn't want the average "Joe" or "Jane Internet" taking images from their properties and developing web sites of their own, and playing with the images. They threatened thousands of people with legal action if their images, and other copyrighted properties, weren't removed from those websites forthwith. Now, that to me seems petty (and they did alienate their legions of fans from what I'm told), but it IS their stuff. They own it.

But I personally have no respect for a web site administrator of any Balto tribute site (or any other, for that matter) who tries to enforce a "do not use my images on your web page" agreement which, by its very nature (and by virtue of the fact that the creation of a screen capture, no matter how much work and money goes into it) STILL does not grant or imply that the person who made the capture now somehow "owns" the image. He or she certainly does NOT. And I have used stuff after dealing with such an "agreement".

I'll addend that by pointing out that I have a great deal of respect for Steet. Truly. And he and I have had some very decent and productive communications, which I really hope continue in the future. The Balto Source web site is incredible, and it is CLEAR how much work he put into it!

I totally agree with Cat.!

I agree with Cat!!
Well said Cat!

Thanks for the heads-up!!!

I'm glad this argument is being handled civily. Cat, I agree that art shouldn't be used without consent of the artist, and I also agree with BaltoSeppala that most of this is harmless. Wrong, but harmless. It only gets bad when an actual claim to the image is made by the theif. It should be flattering that they want to use your picture for their profile image, but yes, they should say something about who actually drew the picture if they don't want to start a flame war.

Steet, since BaltoSource is probably the largest and best known collection of Balto-related art on the web, there should be some way we can make sure all of the art is protected, since it's so easily available. I have noticed that Acanis disables right-click saving on some of the screenshots and other images on his site. Could that possibly be done for fan-art on BS? If the images can't be saved, they are much more likely not to be stolen. I understand that some people would like to use an image for their wallpaper on their computer or something, but artists should feel safe about posting their artwork. Disabling right-click would solve a lot of problems, and it could possibly be enabled for members who already have galleries (because then it's less likely that the image will be stolen rather than used for personal reasons).

Just an idea. I know BS is going through a lot of changes right now, but this problem really cannot be ignored.

The no right click thing not only doesn't work, but it's annoying. All they have to do is save the page or screen cap the page. It also doesn't work in all browsers.

Yes Cat!That's what I meant!And Balto Seppala,I am "she" cause I am girl!

About the stolen arts..as I ussually say it's nothing we can't do to stop them,the wather marks are good ideea...I would use it,as far as I'm not the best artist arround tough( gallery http://baltosource.timduru.org/balto-ac ... deb-0.html)
So I won't use..but I dunno what to say,but this MySpace thing is a very creepy place!

very true... all we can really do is make it harder for them. i will experiment with the transparecy thing more and let people know if i come up with anything useful. for now, all i can say is to make it darker, and put it in a place where it'd be harder to edit out.

and well said, cat.

Well, I regret to note that I have not succeeded in trying to convince at least one MySpacer (http://www.myspace.com/aleu_baby) of the need to see reason and be respectful to the artists. She has one of Pample's works floating about on her profile page (although she didn't alter it or take Pample's name off). This girl has taken a very entrenched "whatevah! I'll do what I want!" kind of a stance. When I tried to explain why it would be a simple courtesy to ask permission of the artists, the only thing she'd keep throwing back at me (if you can believe this) would be stuff which amounts to: "they have no right to/means of stopping us", "this is the internet", "it's not going to stop", etc. Everytime I tried to reason with her, she'd throw that kind of stuff back. Finally, last night, she sent me a message telling me to "drop it". So I sent her back a final message which said, in effect, "how disappointing. You have a lot of growing up to do", and then I blocked her.

I'm doing the best I can...

Ice Husky, thanks for understanding. By all appearances, anyway, you seem to be one of the first who really comprehends what I'm trying to do, and that I'm not the bad guy here (either just because I also happen to be a MySpacer, or because I am also trying to defend SOME MySpacers). I appreciate that! Coming from one of the artists, that means a hell of a lot more than if it was just another forum member who wasn't.

Silver Deni...okay, you're a girl. I apologize for not realizing that. I'm only recent to the forum community, and have had no interaction with you before. I meant no slight.

Now...as to solutions. We already seem to agree that watermarks are one way of resolving the problem...or at least stemming it a bit. Pample, Greykitty and some others already do that on some of their works. I am willing to bet that most people, unless they have an expensive Photoshop-style program on their computer, don't have the means to remove watermarks, and find them to be irritating enough to pass the artwork by if it has a watermark on it. And that would make it an effective, if perhaps not full-proof, deterrent.

I agree with Greykitty that disabling the right-click, as Acanis had done, would not work. And I have heard that some people have recently been on Acanis' site and succeeded at right-clicking and saving images (where before they couldn't). And as I said before, those screen capture images from the movies do not BELONG to Acanis...so he has no legal right to keep people from accessing them (which may be why people who visit his site can do so now).

But folks, I have to tell you something about the other side of this argument. It is NOT easy, from what I can see so far, to find direct e-mail addresses for most of the artists by casual browsing of Balto Source, or even the artists' pages. That needs fixing. If it were easier, for those who want to access the art, to get in touch with the artists, then I'm willing to bet that more artists would be seeing requests for permission to use their work. Maybe the e-mail addresses do exist somewhere. But you have to acknowledge that most people don't want to have to take the time to search those out. They want them to be easily-accessible, right on the artists' pages.

So long as we can all find a means to resolving this, or finding a defense for the artists as well as a better means of communication for securing permission, I'm gonna stay in this and try to help anyway I can.

really i dont see the point of doing that kind of stuff on myspace anyways. i have a myspace too, but i dont put art work all over it or RP on it, I dont think thats what it was intended to be used for anyways. But do whatever it takes to keep your art work protected and I'll look around for more people taking it.

No problem at all Seppala!