Animation Source Forums

Truer words were never put to meme (and they more than adequately apply to this site):

Just to add onto what JC and Mighty said, Balto is only widely appreciated by wolfoboos and furries, which still make up a small percentage of movie-lovers. They don't even like it for what it is, they just love that it's a movie about a wolfdog. They share the same appreciation for anime about wolves, White Fang, Alpha and Omega and other such things, that are so different in genre and quality that the only thing they have in common is the fact there's dogs and wolves in it. Balto isn't popular among wolfoboos/furries for being what it is. Just that it's a movie about a wolfdog, not the acting, the animation, the relation to history, or anything else.

I think it's impossible to nail the decline down to a single factor, but it seems to me that some of the older members have been making a determined effort to drive off the newbies. How the heck do we expect to have an increase in activity when we keep shoving people out?

-nods- Cat makes a very good point. I remember being in that phase of life...yeesh. XD

And I see where Dragon Tamer is coming from, too. For me, personally, it's no so much the newbies themselves as it is what most of the newbies are doing. -shrug- But I can't speak for others, and any sort of critic is going to send some of them away regardless, so...yeah.





Glad you like that one so much! XD It is true, though.

I concede that some members, newbies and otherwise, do things which are problematic, if not downright obnoxious, profane, etc. That's to be expected just about any time a large cross-section of the human race comes together. I think, though, that sometimes we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Heck, there are times when we throw the baby out and keep the bathwater.

For those who miss the allegory there, the point is this: yes, there are some new members who are annoying, odd, and out of place. And often times they post work which is even more so. But people treat them as if they were posting obscene remarks or pictures of the Balto characters doing drugs or something. And all the while some of the most vocal of those people (the oposers, not the "noobs") ignore people who come very close to doing those exact same things. Medically speaking, if we want a healthy site then we need to focus on the cancer and let the hiccups sort themselves out.

Heh...well you know, I didn't realize until having another look through the topic recently that you HAD already posted a link to it on your first post! GAH! Larger text, Natti...larger text.




As to "older members pushing out newbies", I think there is a misrepresentation here. And again, it comes down to the difference between "newbies" and "noobs"...as defined here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=noob.

Newbies are quite welcome, and I believe any who do leave are only are "driven off" by their own reactions to the ongoing drama and perhaps also because they too, like many older members, see the larger problems inherent in the site, as already delineated here. Sometimes these newbies come here for reasons other than being fans of the movies this site is SUPPOSED to be about. Occasionally they leave peaceably after seeing that the fan base of those movies can be protective of the fandom and the places they want to mingle. Other times they try to entrench themselves into the community, and get pissy and confrontational whenever their non-fannish behavior and activities gets confronted. And the drama rolls inexorably on. Cat hinted at some of those types (though, to be grudgingly fair, there are wolfaboos and furries who could be called Balto fans... *shiver*).

NOOBS, on the other hand, are indeed irritants and troublemakers, who ruffle the feathers of the establishment here and generate drama and unrest. Often they are coddled and enabled by a few "feeling" older members who want to play at being motherly (regardless of their gender). Which only exacerbates the problems the noobs create, and sets older members against each other. THEY do not belong...and their leaving is no great loss. Yeeeeees, A FEW noobs do eventually become calmer, more mature and perhaps even beneficial members of this site. But they are the exception rather than the rule.

And I think it's fair to say that several of us have already adequately established that the decline cannot be pinned down to a single factor.

I think you're misrepresenting some yourself. What you dismiss as "coddling" and "enabling" in many cases amounts simply to hearing someone out. Besides, how is anyone to determine which "noobs" will become productive members of the site and which won't if they are driven away unilaterally?

I would go so far as to say that, if you met today someone identical to the person I was when I first joined, you would dismiss that person as a noob and a loser who would never be of any value to the site, and never give that other me a second thought.

I really don't believe I am, actually. What you define as "hearing someone out" usually equates with encouraging those who have little to no interest in being fans of the Balto movies to remain here and entrench themselves into the membership, thence dump pages' worth of non-related art, characters, and other silliness (including what are usually horrible renders, stolen lineart blanks, and tons of bad "MarySues"). Or hanging around the shoutboxes (most often the Balto Source and Lion King Source shoutboxes) pestering people with their horrid grammar and spelling (and once again, as I have so many times before, I refer only to native English speakers in that), their horrendous and/or inane behavior, and so on.

How can one determine which noobs will become productive members of the site and which won't if they are driven away unilaterally? Well, to that I have two answers:

a. There is no effort by any single person or group of people, that I have EVER seen on this site in as long as I have been here, to actually drive someone off (the admitted actions of one former and high-ranking staffer being one possible exception. But he's long gone now, so it is a non-issue. He failed). To state or imply that there is such an effort is patently ridiculous. And incendiary.

b. I don't see that it falls to any member to make that determination. If a member evolves, that is wonderful. If not, that is a freaking annoyance. Is it our jobs to analyze every new member and catalog their behavior, intent, submissions, and so on?

NO.

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly didn't come here to be either a statistical or behavioral analyst, much less a social advocate.

On the matters of unrelated art and characters, and that of stolen or uncreative material, I will speak strictly for myself and say that I have offered reasonable solutions to these in the past. And if someone's material stinks, which I concede much of it does, it's far more productive to come alongside and encourage them to fix the flaws, rather than say "You're a loser, you'll never be any good." Which may not be the words a lot of people, present company included, have used in the past, but it is what newbies will hear.

Also, I hasten to point out that anyone who enjoys G-rated movies is something of a minority these days; I've been picked on for having those kinds of tastes, tastes others dubbed "immature," all my life. I suspect that people who are fans of wolves, etc. feel much the same (and what grounds are there, really, for saying that's an invalid reason for liking Balto, at least as a start? That's like saying that people who like cats have no right to enjoy Aristocats or Cats Don't Dance). To make a long story short, if we want people here who like Balto, it makes little sense to be so picky about their reasons for liking him when most prospective members have had it up to their hair with being criticized and called immature. Besides, the more they hang around those who enjoy the movies, the more likely they are to become real fans if they aren't already, provided they're not driven off with bayonets instead.


When I speak of people being driven off, I'm talking about outcome, not necessarily intent. Perfect example: I never meant to accuse you or anyone else of deliberate malice, but that's how you perceived it. See where I'm going with this?


Ah, but you are doing so in a rather simplified sense whether you realize it or not. Every time you discern, in your own mind, that someone is a troll, noob, or a nice and productive member, you've analyzed them, most often by their behavior. We all do it all the time. It's basic psychology, elementary human nature.

Well you're gonna have to show me where anyone has said "you're a loser, you'll never be any good" to either a noob or a newbie. Otherwise there is no merit to what you said.

If, as you said, it is "not the words a lot of people, present company included, have used in the past, but it is what newbies will hear", then I submit that is their problem...a problem with their perceptive skills (or lack thereof) or their touchiness. Not of the person who may have posted something that touched off a totally unnecessary fit or some ridiculous desire to go running off the site after making some melodramatic statement about hate, intolerance and blah blah blah...


No one said people who like wolves or other canines are "immature" or shouldn't be here merely FOR liking wolves or other canines. We're not talking about that particular class of people. And I would presume that many people who are members of this site have an affinity for all (or most) canines. So your statement is presumptuous.

Cat and others were talking about "wolfaboos", which are a different class entirely. The behavior and mindset of wolfaboos have already been outlined, defined and justifiably ridiculed on this site enough times. Do I really need to link ANOTHER definition? Because, to the rational mind, there is absolutely nothing good or likeable about wolfaboos (and there are uniformly-condemning web pages and even YouTube videos about wolfaboos...even from unexpected places like the furry community...I think that says more than enough about how freaking idiotic these people are): http://ohinternet.com/Wolfaboo (scroll down the page to continue the hilarious and very accurate definition); also: http://respeanut.deviantart.com/art/My-Wolfaboo-research-report-172949302 (hilarious and, once again, exceedingly accurate)


Perhaps you should consider how you address your responses. Because it would seem you have a knack for generating the kinds of replies I, Cat and others give you after you post your often lengthy replies.


Don't try and psychoanalyze me, Dragon Tamer. You've gotten yourself into difficult waters in the past over that, and it could just as easily happen again. Once again, you have oversimplified and misrepresented what I actually said. I was referring, quite obviously, to your earlier inference that it would be hypothetically necessary for me, or anyone else who doesn't subscribe to your social philosophy, to have to continually generate statistical and behavioral analyses of the membership at large in order to determine just how many of them might become productive members as opposed to those who would go stomping off in some melodramatic, childish hissy fit because they didn't feel the love. ROFL

Don't spin doctor my statements. That's rude.

When it comes to the question of if this site is gaining the movies any fame, than I voted "yes" on the poll. An active site(regardless of what activity is taking place) that carries the name and information about the Balto movies is better than nothing at all.

When it comes to this site "surviving" I would say that things have changed for sure. There was a definite benefit to having just Balto source, so the fandom was more centralized and focused on what people like myself came here for. However, there are some benefits to there being multiple sources that I feel may not have been fully realized by other posters in this thread. People that might never have heard of Balto could have found the source and movies by happening upon the sources for the other movies. While there is more competition between the sources, they can lead to new discoveries and help create more fans for people that did not know about the movies and series before going to other sources.

Now, on to the question of whether or not the community itself is doing alright. I personally feel like things are not that different from when I first joined here about four years ago. While I was never deeply involved in the community as a whole I haven't noticed a huge degradation of the overall fanbase of the sites. I would admit that things may not be as tight-knit and dedicated as they used to be, but the community is still doing just fine to me. I think that saying that these sources will die in the near future is about like saying that 2012 will happen; I just don't see that being a plausible future right now.

That's the equivalent of someone starting a fan site about superheroes, but allowing art and fiction submissions of "Strawberry Shortcake", and all manner of neon and obscenely/obnoxiously-colorful MarySue superheroes without bios but with ridiculous accessories. And then almost no discussion about the actual superheroes, or the stuff they appear in, on either a forum or in "articles" and such on the main site.

Yeah...see, that makes no sense to me whatsoever. It's not about whether or not the site keeps attracting new people...it's about retaining the real fans it had at the outset, and who came later BECAUSE they specifically are fans, and also about retaining its initial and stated intent and design. Not about "anything goes just to keep the site going".

At least we're back on topic to Balto's popularity and not talking about being tolerant and accepting of n00bish ways, cuz it's the "right" thing to do. I was worried I wasn't going to be able to contribute to this conversation anymore xD



This xD

It's obvious the only reason this site is active at all is because wolfoboos loooooooooove making characters and they looooooooove Sparkledogs. Sure, call them fans of any movie on this site, they show little to zero signs of interest in the source they've joined and use it only because we have a fan characters section that's barely moderated, and they literally can post anything they want, whether its related to the site or not. But Deviantart and Furaffinity are more appropriate for what they're drawing, so why are they here? It's because of Balto right? Err, no xD Maybe they found it for Balto originally, but like JC said they aren't contributing anything that makes it a Balto site or a Cats Don't Dance site. It's because they want to be noticed and they're not being noticed there, so they come here because we're smaller and they have a better chance.

I mean look at Cats Don't Dance Source. Until people started to notice the site, people were posting WARRIORS characters and contests on there. And for anyone who knows what I'm talking about, that's far from Cats Don't Dance related. Other than, you know, they're cats. Same crap is happening here. Only people don't go and check any recent content on this site to see just how few Balto-related things are actually posted other than when they're required to post one Balto-related thing every 6 or so drawings or whatever that is.

Take the Fan Characters section away, you'll lose a third of the fans coming to this site. Take away the contests, which have now been reduced to Character Contests, and you'll lose another third. What are we stuck with? Fanart and fan fiction, where people only do the bare minimum of fanart because they're posting pictures of everyone else's character regardless of relativity.

Oh, but even the Balto-related content has it's issues. The ARTICLES section, that's a real gem too. You know how many Kodi/Dusty topics there are about the exact same freaking thing? Too many. And it's embarrassing to have that many around. Same thing with the Aniu/White Wolf argument. I don't think an article on a new topic has been posted in a good 4 years. But why's that? Is it because Balto is just one movie and you're running out of discussion (or rather flame bait, since no one can have a discussion around here without someone wetting themselves) material? Oh, of course. There's only so much stuff you can talk about for one movie, and I'm pretty sure all of it's been discussed already, so people don't know what to say anymore. And if they don't say anything, it's because they're too busy posting a picture or their character Toothfang and holding a mate contest for him because he's lonely.

And say what you will about the other sites' activity, I've been the only one actively posting on 101 Dalmatians Source, and I post stuff like once every two weeks, so that hardly counts as activity. And I rarely see All Dogs Go To Heaven Source or anything else being updated with anything that isn't leading to the same problem Balto Source has.

Some sites just die when they run out of content, but people keep adding reasons for people to stay that have nothing to do with the original intent of the site xD Like adjustng the rules so Sparkledogs can be acceptable, or stop moderating the articles so people can post whatever they want, or allowing a half-page minimum for a fanfic.

So, to wrap things up, personally, in my opinion, to me, if I may be frank, from my perspective, according to my observations, methnks everyone voting "gaining fame" is just happy the site's active at all. Which is like saying "My computer can't connect to the internet or open any programs, but at least it turns on." It's like beating a dead horse, if you ask me.

Well that ought to stimulate some juicy discussion!


*Ding ding ding!* There's a ringer! Bullseye!


Which has to be one of the most boneheaded "compromises" this site has ever been saddled with. There are very obvious cases of these kiddies actually monitoring their submissions just to make sure they threw in that one related submission so that they are in the clear to add their piles of unrelated garbage. And yes, gang, I DO mean it...

GARBAGE

Or, as the old saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out" (wolfaboos and weeaboos in, sparkle/unrealistic crap posted. Boom, baby.)




Good Lord, Cat. Your edit was full of the glaze of epicness!

The funny thing is, it's an automated thing, so mods don't even have to do anything. Given that mods don't notice, someone could have a picture of a rabbit riding a bike, and select Aleu in the Characters part, and it'd be accepted. Not saying no one would notice, but I'm just saying the mods don't keep tabs on how may Balto drawings anyone has, the site keeps track of that. So when they post something, it'll tell them if they have too many unrelated drawings and to post something related to the site. Which the requirement is a small percentage.

Not trying to turn this into a suggestion topic, I'm just saying how it works, people.