Animation Source Forums

He DID leave on his own accord. I witnessed it.



I'm NOT going to say anymore about or on this subject, but I felt I had to post the evidence that it wasn't (or any of it.) JC's fault. Or anyone's. Pointing fingers isn't going to help the situation at all.

Shut a whole site down because people can't get along? Isn't that a bit like punishing a whole classroom of kids when only one is acting up? I can hardly see how that is fair - especially to everyone whose invested their time and hard work here.

Because of what you offered, NYBF, I would like to respond to just two specific items (and I am going to ignore that "former friend" jibe from earlier, from another poster, as it is unworthy of response).


It goes farther back than you know. And man, there is a LOT of stuff no one has seen (certainly not in this particular case). However, the predictable consequences of revealing that stuff generally make showing it all utterly impossible (much as I KNOW it would make people see this a lot clearer). But it goes a heck of a lot deeper and darker than anyone realizes. And anyone who actually saw it would no longer be so quick to hold the other party up on that shining alabaster pedestal they've erected for him. Be that as it may...


Okay, I will bite...to a point:

1. I will apologize to those who actually were not PART of the ugly machinations and vicious politicking, spin-doctoring and mudslinging, but had to deal with all the consequences and the fallout. For my part, I am very sorry to everyone who had to deal with this. Steet included. I never, from square one, meant any harm (regardless of whether or not anyone believes that, and utterly regardless of the baloney said about my intentions and what I supposedly have done over time, and recently. Hey - if standing up for yourself, and debating certain points passionately, is considered a crime on this site, they I guess the case is closed. ROFL Guilty as charged! *GASP!*).

2. If you wish, personally, to work things out in private with me, NYBF, I welcome it. I didn't presume guilt by association on your part...I know of things said. Again, be that as it may, I am open to bridge-building, healing and peacemaking with anyone who is also mature and civil and magnanimous enough to join me in that process. I have done so before, and some people who came to my DEFENSE when all this...stuff...hit the fan were people who, at one point or another in the past, argued with me (sometimes passionately). And yet, WE were able to mend our differences like mature people. Odd that there is such a callous display of immaturity and viciousness still going on, and it probably will continue for some months hence (I am sorry to say...even though I WILL do my best to ignore it for the sake of the site). As to the rest, well, they will have to live with the anger and bitterness and skewed perspective if they cannot get beyond it. That happens all too often on this site because, frankly, as much as I have been tagged with this fictitious label of being the person "who has gotten into more arguments than anyone else in the history of this site", the fact is that there are more hyper-sensitive, reactionary, cliquish and hot-tempered malcontents and bullies on this site than anyone could shake the proverbial stick at, and they often come on here LOOKING for a fight, and gladly welcome it when it arrives. But hey - I have to bear the cross for all those people. According to one person in this topic, that is exactly what I am supposed to do. Bear that guilt solely and completely on my own. Whatever. There are plenty of people who know better.

3. The bottom line about this ugly event is this: had it not been the "Are you a furry?" topic, it would have been another. Sooner or later, someone would have either misconstrued what I was saying, or completely overreacted, or else one or two people with some piddly old grudge would have found the topic and flame baited, hoping to draw a fight with me. And the circumstances would have been the same, and we would STILL have arrived at the point we are at now. TRUST me on that - this was inevitable. What GOOD comes of it, in time, will remain to be seen. But it may take some time.

I have long since been sick of all this garbage. Of being singled out for prejudicial treatment and punishment for offenses not initiated or even sought by me. I DID come back because I still wanted to share my knowledge and also to still communicate about the Balto cartoons (and some others as well). But there are some people who never ever wanted me to return, and once I did they began active efforts to reverse it and intimidate me right back off. What they didn't count on was that, regardless of the outcome (or the vicious and false light I have been painted in), I would stand my ground and not go tucking tail and running in frustration like last time. And that's NOT going to happen this time. Do I think that there are people "conspiring against me" all the time? Nope. Nuh uh. I react on factual information that comes to my attention, or which I can observe myself. Or am subject to. And then I do what I must to try and set things RIGHT, and make sure the facts are STRAIGHT. Quite often, that doesn't occur here. The reverse happens. It's like everything works in opposite to the truth...if someone gets bullied, if they are otherwise a vocal enough person (with strong opinions and a willingness to defend themselves when attacked, instead of knuckling under like a good little member), THEY are invariably punished...exclusively. That is something with which I am very well-acquainted.

I was doing quite well until I was permabanned for no reason. Then released (by steet). Then permabanned again. Then released at his instruction. I am not surprised that you failed on that end. It's a shame, really. But what can you do? At least SOME of us are willing to try.

But there will be no peace between he and I. The situation is too far gone.



Thank you. I actually didn't expect you to budge even an inch and you did. Now let's put this behind us.[/quote]
Is it really all that surprising?

If we are to put this behind the two of us, I would love that. But we DO need to talk privately...not just say all this for the sake of appearances and best hopes. There's work to be done.

This is just plan ridiculous.

I've watched this dispute for a while now and I chose not to get involved. But now I think I'll speak up.

Do we really have to keep dragging this along? Why do people keep bringing it up if it upsets them? JC is the way he is and you can't change that. No one can. (Although he has done a few things I question) I don't understand why people keep blaming him for all the wrongs the sites have. JC is the way he is and if some people don't like it then deal. Sometimes he's the kind of person who needs to have the last word. He defends his thoughts just like anyone would on the site even if he goes about it the wrong way. It's the way he is.

The point is; instead of spending energy yelling at each other, why don't we focus on the REAL problems on the sites. Like that new ridiculous rule on sparkledogs. I'm just sick and tired of this crap popping up everywhere when there are better things to focus on.

At this point I'm officially neutral.

Nothing, absolutely nothing warrants steet posting about the feud in the main news section of Balto Source. Announcing that Togo had left; fine. Announcing that JC was unbanned; fine. Sternly warning JC on the front page of the largest Source site here?; not so fine. Personally, if I were JC when reading that, I would have sent a very strong worded complaint to steet.

I understand there was a bit of a 'thing' between Togo and JC, but does it really need to be blabbered out on the front page of Balto Source? I feel that it should have just been announced on the MB or something, because this has to be one of the most unprofessional things anyone with power could do (I guess steet would work well as a tabloid )

I agree with ZukotheCat, we need to stop pointing fingers. Was JC fully to blame? No. Was Togo fully to blame? No. Was it steet's fault? No. It was, however; the fault of all of them, and the fault of everyone who 'fought' in these little wars (I also, will take a small share of the blame). So perhaps we could move on?

First of all: We need to stop talking about closing down Animation Source; this is a fairly silly idea and wouldn't do it justice.

Next: Politicking is becoming a fairly big problem on this site, so perhaps there should be a board (like on the French version), where more 'mature' members can have sensible debates about whatever they like, almost like a debating society on AS.

Lastly: In addition to the suggestion above, perhaps have either elected or highly appointed users to serve as non-executive admins (as in, they cant wave a ban stick around the room shouting Avada KaBAN) who would make the rules, and make the important decisions of the site (of course, steet would have the ultimate veto). This would HOPEFULLY give us a fairer system so less people can complain about silly rule-making like the introduction of Sparklerats.

Thanks for reading my utter nonsense above

Rant over.

Conay, you pretty much said what I wanted to say but in a nicer tone. xD I couldn't believe that Steet actually put all that crap on the front page of BS. Like you said, nothing warranted that. At all. Period. Some people will cry "His site, his rules." Yeah, well just because it's his site doesn't make that right. To pointedly call out a single member like that is pretty childish in my opinion. If he had to say something to particular members he could have easily just PM'd them, not made it public to every person here. That's something a vengeful child would do and he was pretty much saying "Hey btw, you're not allowed to stick up for your opinions/beliefs."

Pointing fingers at people is also a fail thing to do. (There's that whole saying "Whenever you point your finger at someone there's four pointing back at you" or something along those lines).

And as a slight side note, "Avada KaBAN" is win. *nerd*

I agree saying "Hey man, chill out bro" on the news was probably un-called-for.
That's not what got me so wound up.

What did was the fact that JC was acting as if he had NOTHING at all to do with the mess. It was everyone else's fault and he was an innocent in it all.
Whereas it was exactly as Conay said;


I'm quite ready and happy to admit I myself didn't do too much to help the situation immediately.

I was frankly angry that all of the unneeded butthurt resulted in what it did.

The most important thing (to me, anyways), was JC being unbanned. Togo leaving is just icing on the cake. JC's unbanned, so I'm happy. The means by which it happened do not concern me.

For both of them, it goes beyond just making up and moving on. A lot of people don't know the behind the scenes stuff that went on with Togo and JC, and that lack of info I'm fairly certain is why people don't understand this.

Well, RJ, you addressed me specifically, and asked me questions, so I guess I am obligated to come in again and do my best to answer them (and I will take care to not go overboard here...though, to properly answer some of your points and questions, I HAVE to say some things...which I suspect may generate some hostile responses):


It IS a constant loop of grudges. But frankly, while I know no one is going to believe me without my taking a grandiose amount of time to post direct evidence to that effect (which I know would result in my being warned and possibly banned AGAIN, so I shall NOT), which goes back a LOOOOOONG way, I have to tell you that the problems did not start because of me. Evidence I have would prove that. Posting it publicly would only make things worse HERE, and I think we both know that they wouldn't remain in this post anyway -- they would be edited out, and I would have garnered yet another warning for simply defending myself.

Do I hate Togo (and his closest friends who are actively involved in this on-going grudge battle)? Sure I do. Okay...that's a fault of mine, and I acknowledge that. I AM angry, I AM offended, and I have been slow to resolve it given how deep the wounds go. And I have asked some friends in the know to help me by making known to me when "they" are trashing me and working beyond the scope of their DUTIES to do what they HAVE been doing. There are my major faults in this. There you all go: I have admitted my ACTUAL guilt in this. But have I conducted myself dishonorably? I don't believe there is a single SHRED of evidence which would point to me doing anything which wasn't necessary to defend myself, or to prove where the greater guilt actually lay in ALL cases. That hardly makes me a bad person, or guilty of anything other than an ardent defense of myself against what always seems like overwhelming odds.


I tried that route, RJ. Most of my friends on here know that. I even went as far as to invite Togo in on an trip to Alaska that some of us are taking in 2012 (basically a repeat of the one I took alone in 2008), because he had made me believe that we were on a good track, and were "friends". When I found out, through a TRUE friend, that he was actually trash-talking me behind my back -- here on Animation Source (in a location where the general membership could not see), I made it clear that I was offended by how he'd used and misled me, and that he was henceforth unwelcome on the trip and that I wanted nothing more to do with him. That is when this new round of "I must find a way to permaban JC and make him pay" started...reviving his older grudges against me.

This is what Togo had to say about his approach to me before this all blew up recently (and I quote directly from a private message to me on Facebook):


The above quote meaning that he had no intentions of being friendly or cooperative ON Animation Source, and that I should simply accept the fact that, ON Animation Source (even if just amongst the staff members...who control our status on here through warnings and bans, and who, sadly, sometimes ajudicate things very haphazardly! ), he was going to continue to speak ill of me and paint me in a VERY bad light. More of the conversation would show that, but I shall forego posting it as it is very contentious.

Even other friends, mods and not mods, on Animation Source have tried to talk privately with Togo to reason with him about this mess. Each told me he was completely unreceptive to any peacemaking, letting bygones be bygones, or dropping the "hell bent on permabanning" thing (which he tried twice...each time, as steet made it clear, without merit. Others have since chimed in publicly that they too saw the permabans as uncalled-for and utterly without merit.)

One of the people who posted in THIS topic, who had been a friend over the years (I assume), had several things to say about that aforementioned Facebook message exchange I had with Togo. Though her opinion seems to have swung away from this with the current circumstances, sadly. Here is what she had to say when she saw the entirety of it (these are snippets from a few messages):







When another of our mutual friends...a former moderator on AS, said she wanted to talk to him privately about this, I told her not to hold out too much hope as to his being receptive to it (as the member quoted above, also a staffer, had already tried), here is what she said (this is from a deviantArt conversation):



After trying to reason with him, she sent me back messages which included the following statements:




She included a quote from one of his messages which I won't paste in here (for obvious reasons, and out of respect to her since I do not have her permission to do so), but which flamed the beejeezus out of me and also said some very uncomplimentary things about steet's clarity of thought...a common theme in Togo's rants of late (even though he professed "friendship" to him in parting comments in the TaleSpin Source open shoutbox).

So I really don't know what else I am supposed to do. And frankly, I don't think it's up to me to keep trying. I've done what I can. And I've been villainized, condemned, plotted against, and prejudicially-treated by a certain FEW members of the staff here on Animation Source because of their loyalties to Togo. And I'm getting sick of it.

It makes matters worse when I am the only member in Animation Source history, it would seem (and as far back as I can recall...to at least 2006) who has been openly and roundly criticized by the webmaster on the site, in spite of my best efforts (especially in my latest return) to seek peace and resolution with him privately. Even to privately apologize for anything he viewed as past wrongs regardless of whether or not I felt I was guilty of them. I think that was pretty darned submissive and magnanimous of me. I HAVE been trying.


This wasn't initially a "me versus Togo" topic. It was solely about the ugliness that happened in the BS shoutbox that night, after Togo resigned. Nothing more. But it went beyond that, without my prompting. People will post their opinions. That is unavoidable. Of course, SOME people can post opinions with impunity. Others, like myself, cannot.

Togo has temporarily deactivated the external moderator forum, as he owns it. And he permabanned me there until the year 2036 anyway. Besides, the situation went no better there than on Animation Source officially. And since steet does not regulate that forum, I would rather conduct things through official channels. Or at least make attempts to.


I have already answered that last statement above.



It is FAR from over, unfortunately. I know for a certain fact that various members and moderators have been contacted, off-site and in private, to attempt to lure them into denouncing me so that a new permaban could be justified. Several have come to me of their own free will to let me know of this, and who is involved. But again, the realities of what can and cannot be posted here prevent me from going further.

When is it over? When THEY let it alone, and begin doing their jobs again, and those who have announced their intentions to leave just DO so. They are no better than the whiners that some of you complain about here in the rant board, who talk about leaving and never coming back. Yes, even I left and came back...but do you REALLY think I came back to engage in flame wars with furries or with members of the staff (especially Togo)? Really?
I think there is certainly enough evidence to show that the exact opposite is the case...and has been from day one.

I am sick and tired of being the only member who is made into a news item publicly (which has happened at least twice in AS history when conflicts arise). I am sick and tired of being villainized by the a certain percentage of the staff, and having a false image of me spread around there and even amongst the general membership, by people with grudges, or those who blindly (and foolishly) believe them. I am sick to death of not being able to enjoy myself here because of those things...and because I can never know when I will next find myself banned or having speculative and ridiculous warnings leveled against me for even the very SLIGHTEST things because of that abiding prejudice!

If it were any of you in my boat, you would be as frustrated, as angry, and as offended as I have been. You would wonder at how you could keep trying so hard to do good for Animation Source and its members, but could not get very far because of a malicious and utterly fallacious image of you that has been spread around and perpetualized by a small number of people who are too infantile and egocentric to move on and allow bygones to be bygones...and of a webmaster who is quite often reticent about correcting such problems when that is exactly what the system he created encourages a person to do if they want to seek redress (and could get nowhere with those lower on the ladder). I am NOT guilty of collaborating to bring down Animation Source; I am NOT guilty of being a flamer or a troll; I am NOT guilty of being the most argumentative person in AS history (there are others, some of whom are even still members, who have far exceeded me in this area); I am NOT guilty of seeking OUT arguments or creating them. As I have said, there are some people on here who are too freaking hypersensitive and hostile to be on a public internet forum without lashing out when they feel they have been offended or attacked (simply by not liking my opinions or debates). And yet, the guilt is always heaped back onto me for that. Some comments in this topic, and even on steet's news item (and on the now-locked "Are you a furry?" topic), make that very evident.

When will it be enough? I would sure like to know. But I don't expect that I will EVER get any peace on here. Because those who bear those grudges are absolutely determined to find a way to see me kicked off of the LATTS staff and, ideally, for steet to look the other way and allow me to be permabanned again, once and for all. It's like some psychotic game of getting in the last shot. But I cannot move on or find peace until they LET IT GO. Gosh, forgive me for not going along ever so quietly with that. I didn't realize that was such a terrible crime...