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I read that he died of old age when he was about 14. So sad

And where did you recall reading that?

JerseyCaptain wrote: "You always talk about this evidence you claim to have seen, but you never, or very rarely, seem able or willing to cite your sources."

I would have to disagree with you on that.....and that's certainly not the case here. I provided several references about Balto's age in a message in the next topic on this forum. And furthermore, I don't just "claim" to have "seen" evidence. When I write something, it's because I actually have the evidence to support the writing.

I believe Jersey means you should provide the evidence with each post you make, or it seems like just hearsay sort of thing. And really, you should, so we know what you're saying is true. Text can be made up after all.

Draco wrote: "I believe Jersey means you should provide the evidence with each post you make....."
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OK. If that should be the case, then I'll go over what I covered before.

To start with, two people who would of been knowledgeable about Balto's age were Leonhard Seppala and Gunnar Kaasen.

One reference about Balto's age during the serum run is in The Cruelest Miles book. Another is in the book The World of Sled Dogs. These two books indicate that Leonhard Seppala was the source.

Not long after arriving in the Lower 48, Gunnar Kaasen reported Balto's age to some west coast newspapers, all the way from Seattle to Los Angeles.

All of these accounts say that Balto was six years old at the time of these events.

In doing the math based on these accounts, it's remotely possible that Balto was born sometime in January of 1919. But by far, the odds heavily favor him being born in 1918, and most likely sometime during the second half of that year. Either way, this would make Balto 14 years old when he passed away in March, 1933.

Ironic. Because if that information in your last posting on here is supposed to constitute "evidence to support the writing", then it's hardly either conclusive or irrefutable. And this is the pattern of "evidence" you have consistently provided whenever called out onto the proverbial carpet. lol It doesn't wash. Nor would it with either professional or lay historians. I should know...I have spent a great deal of time interacting with and conferring with both on a variety of historical subjects I am interested in.

But let's analyze your various "evidential" claims, shall we?


That much is true. They both would have known Balto's age. More specifically Leonhard Seppala than Gunnar Kaasen. Kaasen merely worked with Seppala, and probably worked with Balto, at Hammon Consolidated Gold Fields before the events of the serum run...as he indicated knowing the dog and his quality. Whether or not he knew the dog's certain age is speculative. Seppala, on the other hand, would have known when Balto was birthed, being his owner. And there is absolutely no evidence which states anywhere that Balto was not born at Little Creek (Seppala's kennels). Only various undocumented claims by people in the years after the serum run, who were trying to shoehorn their own interpretations of Balto and his history into an official answer. Which doesn't constitute fact at all.


Ah yes...the apocryphal bit about Seppala stating that Balto was six years of age at the time of the serum run. Seen that many times. And I have noted it on my own website (a long time ago by now). However, that alone does not constitute conclusive evidence, and no one ever seems able to produce that quotation or its source. Not even the Salisburys IN The Cruelest Miles. Still, that book does not, in fact, state that Balto was fourteen years of age when he was put to sleep. It actually says (just before quoting this alleged claim of Seppala's, which even they, with their otherwise excellent and extensive bibliography and source notes, could not provide a reference or source material for ):



Note the use of the words "may in fact". Even in their minds, and in the existing historical record, there is and remains a measure of inconclusive doubt.


Oh I agree...it is possible. In fact, the math is remotely possible on all counts. And at best, with the ages of the dogs involved in the serum run, one cannot do exact math without exact birth and death dates. One can only speculate and make a "best guess". Leaving a glaring margin of error. That is not even remotely debatable.

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If you are unable to actually quote or reference materials specifically, rather than just refer to them in the vaguest terms and then tell people they have to go look them up for themselves (which you have done), then you have no business posting like this. This is not a place for you to prove how right you believe you can be (and how wrong you believe everyone else can be), but a place to discuss history with a certain decorum and responsibility. Including backing up what you've posted with documentation. Conclusive documentation. As I have done. And some others have done as well.




Let's take a quick look at some print and internet sources, shall we? (The web links can easily be clicked on to access the information below.)

• Your vaunted newspapers, which you place so much faith in, have often laid claim to Balto having been only eleven years of age when he died. Actually, I DON'T have specific newspaper extracts to refer to in this case, but several books and internet sites refer to these newspaper claims of Balto's age. Claims you don't seem to support. But I thought the newspapers were so accurate and such good sources for historical research?
  
  
• http://www.cmnh.org/site/AtTheMuseum/OnExhibit/PermanentExhibits/Balto.aspx The Cleveland Museum of Natural History, repository of much of Balto's history and information about him, sticks to the 1919 birth date, and the age of 14 at the time of death.
  
  
• http://www.sibrescue.com/balto.html, a Siberian Husky rescue organization website, seems to feel that Balto was only ten years old when he died.
  
  
• http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~aknome/balto.html The folks at Roots Web seem intent on sticking with the eleven year limit at the time of death.
  
  
• http://www.ravishingbeasts.com/dogs/2008/3/4/balto-the-sled-dog.html This taxidermy site prefers fourteen at the time of death.
  
  
• http://www.workingdogweb.com/Balto-Togo-Goodbye-Nome.htm The over-confident author of this article refused to commit to any age...or even reference to it.
  
  
• http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/elephant/114/realbal.htm This fellow, even though he visited the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, and the Balto exhibit (as detailed on the web page), seems intent on sticking with the eleven years of age thing too.
  
  
• http://fluke.theicecave.org/realbalto.shtml This fellow, who has also been a member of the Balto movie fan community, was unwilling to commit to any age at the time of death.
  
  
• http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/extraordinary_animals/107408 Suite 101 likes eleven.
  
  
• In her book The Adventures of Balto: The Untold Story Of Alaska's Famous Iditarod Sled Dog, Patricia Chargot prefers eleven as Balto's age at the time he was put to sleep (pp. 69-70).
  
  
• In his book The Race To Nome: Alaska's Heroic Race To Save Lives, Kenneth Ungermann prefers not to discuss Balto and the team after their experiences with Sol Lesser and the traveling vaudeville tour whatsoever.

The point to all of this? NO ONE seems able to conclusively shed light on Balto's birth date and, therefore, his actual age at the time of his death. They can only speculate based upon alleged quotations, newspaper accounts, and apocryphal information. That does not measure up to much in the litmus test of historical proof. It is, at best, inconclusive. And probably always will be. To debate that would be patently ridiculous UNTIL someone produces hard, irrefutable documentation of Balto's actual birth date. And if that exists anywhere, it is probably sitting either in some collector's private stock, or is buried in the records of Seppala's Little Creek kennels, which are the property of the Seppala descendants. If even the Cleveland Museum of Natural History cannot produce such a piece of hard evidence, I refuse to believe that you or pretty much anyone else BUT the Seppala family can.

Exactly, so why are you so dead set on trying to prove Sarah wrong? For all you know, she's 100% right. Wouldn't it be easier to simply admit that you don't know Balto's exact age at time of death either? Or are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? It doesn't seem like you're adding anything constructive to this topic. Like this, for example:



And unless you're able to provide evidence that he WAS born there, you are no more in the right than Sarah is, and there is absolutely no point in even bringing it up. You're just being argumentative. The entire concept of trying to prove Sarah wrong is flawed, since you can't do it.



Oh, the irony. Wasn't your entire post just a vessel to prove how right you can be, and how wrong everyone else can be? Come on. Start making better posts that are more constructive and less condescending or I'm reporting you. I'm reading this thread for information and discussion, not to watch you throw your ego around and treat other people badly.

Well, since I am not, that is non-responsive and nothing more than argumentative in of itself, Mr. Pot-Calling-The-Kettle-Black.


I never implied I did. Next flame bait?


Nuh uh. So why are you?


Golly, it sure seems like it was constructive. Because I pointed out that there is no place where it states that Balto was not born at Little Creek. My goodness, that certainly sounds like worthwhile contributory effort on my part. And good golly goshness, I certainly thought all those links, that I actually LOOKED at first, and the direct quotation from The Cruelest Miles, which Sarah was unwilling or unable to provide, were constructive contributions! My stars, I must have been mistaken! Ooooooh!

Seems to me that every single thing you've posted in your flame bait contributes absolutely nothing to the topic except to generate yet another pointless argument. Tsk tsk, Zack. Tsk tsk.


Nope. We have already established that you are the one who is being argumentative merely to flame bait and maintain an argumentative posture in this topic. Which is infantile.


You like to attribute the behavior of others to me just to flame bait, don't you? Zack, you ought to look into other hobbies. More positive ones.




Oh, the irony indeed! ROFL You ascribe traits to me that has characterized your behavior towards lots of people on this forum in the past--me, Wolflux, and many others. All because you didn't happen to personally like their responses, or because *GASP!* they had the unmitigated temerity to differ with you! Perish the thought!

Stop trying to get another topic locked, and stop trying once again to flame bait, Zack. It is not only against the rules of this site, it is annoying and, as I said, infantile. Grow up.

Some general observations about research:

Conclusive and irrefutable evidence vs. using the best evidence available to come to a sound and reasonable conclusion.

The use of deception, distortion, unsubstantied opinion, and rank speculation vs. using the best and most original evidence available to come to a sound and reasonable conclusion.

A person who self-appoints themself to argue, dictate or control how things are said or done vs. someone who is offering info. to help clarify or shed light on a particular matter.

Quality vs. quantity.
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JerseyCaptain wrote: "Kaasen merely worked with Seppala, and probably worked with Balto.......before the events of the serum run.......Whether or not he knew the dog's certain age is speculative."
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Not speculative at all in the case of Balto. Kaasen not only provided Balto's age on several occasions, but he also talked about his long relationship with Balto.

JerseyCaptain wrote: "Including backing up what you've posted with documentation. Conclusive documentation. As I have done."
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You have? JerseyCaptain goes on to list ten references. Of these ten, only seven of them actually address Balto's age. Of those seven, only three are credible (the CMNH, The Cruelest Miles and the Balto book). The other four are not authoritative, nor are they independently researched to any great degree, if at all. While they most likely had good intentions, a fair amount of these four writings are dubious, suspect and contradict each other and the best evidence available. They have to a degree just copied and perpetuated some incorrect info. They are not the best and most original sources available. That's where a person has to go to get good info.

JerseyCaptain wrote: "I DON'T have specific newspaper extracts to refer to in this case....."
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I DO.
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JerseyCaptain also wrote: "But I thought the newspapers were so accurate and such good sources for historical research."
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They are - for basic info. such as names, dates, places, descriptions and accounts of events. Back then, newspapers were by far the primary news source.

Here's one of them:

When Gunnar Kaasen and his dog team arrived in LA, a respected and experienced feature story writer named Sadie Mossler interviewed Kaasen at the Biltmore Hotel. She wrote her story in such a way that it was Balto who was answering her questions and providing the info. Of course it was really Gunnar Kaasen. One of the things Balto told Ms. Mossler was "I"m six years old now.......Scrapbook.

If anyone would care to check out what I said previously in this topic, I did not say absolutely, positively and beyond any doubt that Balto was born on a certain date or that he was 14 years old when he died. What I did say is that the best evidence points to him being that age. I also said that based on the various accounts I mentioned, the odds definitely favor him being that age - and that includes a general time frame as to when he was born. I stand by all of that.

We don't have a smoking gun here. But what we do have are some accounts by the most original and best sources available to come to a reasonable and sound conclusion. That same conclusion is also shared by other respected and authoritative historical agencies.

As far as I'm concerned, I've said enough and provided enough info. to support my position on this subject. If someone should choose to believe what I've written, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine, too.

Good God, I hate these!

Sarah, if you have the papers, then PRESENT THEM! I mean, you say you do, but that's it. No saying even what they are or where they came from. Show them, or at least give a general enough description so the regular site member can go and find it themselves.

Why can't we just agree? Balto was somewhere between 11 and 14 when he died--THAT at least is confirmed. Anything past that is pure speculation, as far as official sources are concerned.

Seriously.


She doesn't. And right now, she's chasing around trying to locate that information, and will then claim she had it all along. IF she can even find it.


Which is what I said in my initial response to Sarah. In each case. I reiterate (word-for-word):





Sarah appears to be the one who refuses to agree, even if it is to agree to disagree, or simply to agree that it cannot be proven conclusively. If so, she has yet to provide a single shred of evidence to back up these statements. And I refuse to allow someone to bandy about with bold claims without providing documentation which, in spite of her continued arguments (and I won't even give credence to Xaqtly's flame baits), I have done in each case. From reliable and well-documented (and researched) sources accepted by the historical community.

Buuuuuut she will continue to argue that they are neither reliable nor generally accepted, without countering with anything concrete. That is hardly worthy of more than a chuckle fest. ROFL And in spite of the outlandish accusations thrown by Xaqtly, and the willy-nilly arguments returned by Sarah, I have proven here (as I have before) that I am not the one arguing without backing up my posts, and I am not slinging mud. I am simply arguing the point intelligently (with her...Xaqtly is just being an annoyance in hopes of spurring an argument that will lead to warnings and bans, forlorn though it is)...AND agreeing to a point with her. Odd that she seems to keep missing those particular elements of the discussion.

This is going to end up like the rest of the topics. I vote this one locked.

It's sad, isn't it? That's the fate of all these topics since these two have started in. This was almost never the case before that. And that's a fact. Things were relatively peaceful in here.

I hate to say it, but at this point I am once again forced to agree. A lock is needed before this gets any further out of hand.

Referring to newspaper articles, Skulblaka-Shur'tugal wrote: "Show them, or at least give a general enough description so the regular site member can go and find it themselves."
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I can't do the first part, but I can do the second one. Under US Copyright Law, newspapers dated 1923 and earlier come under the heading of public domain, and have few restrictions. For newspapers dated 1924 to present, there are many more restrictions on their use.

Regarding me having old newspaper articles, JerseyCaptain wrote: "She doesn't. And right now, she's chasing around trying to locate that information, and will then claim she had it all along. IF she can even find it."
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Remember my earlier research observation about the use of deception, distortion, unsubstantiated opinion, and rank speculation? This statement is a perfect example of that.

I wouldn't expect most site members to be familiar with the newspaper source I listed in my LA account about Balto telling Sadie Mossler he was six years old. But since JerseyCaptain claims to be a researcher and knowledgeable about serum run related topics, I certainly would of expected him to recognize the reference I used for that story -- "Scrapbook." Since he didn't, could that be because he isn't as knowledgeable as he claims to be?

The Scrapbook is a collection of newspaper stories about Balto. It is available at the Nome museum. Last I knew the price was about $100. But that was years ago. I don't know what the cost might be today.

There are several other options for getting old newspaper articles. There are local and regional online newspaper databases. If you just use something like "Online newspaper archives" as your search, that will bring up some. Or you can go to the local level by using a search term such as "LA Times newspaper archives" or "Boston Globe newspaper archives." Just FYI, The Seattle Times paper also has one. Quite a few of the local papers around the country are on a system called ProQuest.

All of these online databases require a subscription, a credit card, and are fee based. The fees run in the area of 4 or 5 dollars for a single article, and most of them have a package deal, such as five articles for around $12, or ten articles in the 20 - 25 dollar price range.

And you don't really need to know much info. to search the databases. You can do something as simple as put in the name "Balto" and use a date range of say 1925 to 1933. That will most likely bring up a bunch of articles. All you have to do is sift through them for the ones you want. Most databases give you a little preview of the article, such as the exact date and the headline of the articles, or maybe even the first sentence or two. There are normally tools in these search engines to get as specific or as general as you want. After you find the articles you want, you select the appropriate package, pay for it, and then start bringing up the articles and printing them.

As mentioned earlier, there are restrictions on the use of these articles. And sometimes the databases have their own set of rules, in addition to those of the USC. Most are sold on a for personal use only basis. May not be reproduced, displayed, etc. without the approval of the newspaper owner. And if anyone is expecting me to go through that procedure in order to display them, forget it. These articles are available to the general public, so anyone has the option of getting them.

Another possibility is that if you live in a large city in the USA, some libraries have their own newspaper databases. Some have free access as part of having a library card/membership. I"ve heard that some libraries charge for this service. In some cases, you might have to physically go into the library to use their newspaper database. Others have access you can use at home. It varies from library to library. Some not only have local papers, but access to papers on a regional and national basis as well.

Good luck in your searches.

Under current copyright laws, you ARE allowed to share these findings with us so long as you aren't making any money off of it. And the libraries here where I am actually have micro machines, so I can search a broad catalog of newspaper clips so long as I know what to look for; that's why I was asking for specifics.