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Kaynight
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:55 pm |
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I have two opinions on this, first being that personally I doubt there would be any alive now, however science can dictate otherwise. Anyone here heard of the Lazarus effect? It’s named after the biblical character who returned from the dead. Basically it’s a type of 'phoenix type" like resurrection of a species many years after it disappeared from the fossil record and was thus presumed extinct. It can classified as when a species some how manages to escape the effects of usually a mass extinction in a type of refugium which remains relatively unchanged compared to the world around it. There are three arguments (three different takes of the Lazarus effect) going on at the moment about how to describe how these animals survive but I’m not going to dwell into that, but what I’m basically saying it has been found before but I personally don’t think pterosaur would still be alive but that doesn't mean 100% its not. (lol if anyones wondering I just did an assesment on the Lazarus effect! Coincidence eh  )
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Kaynight
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:43 pm |
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Dragon Tamer wrote: Kaynight wrote: I have two opinions on this, first being that personally I doubt there would be any alive now, however science can dictate otherwise. Anyone here heard of the Lazarus effect? It’s named after the biblical character who returned from the dead. Basically it’s a type of 'phoenix type" like resurrection of a species many years after it disappeared from the fossil record and was thus presumed extinct. It can classified as when a species some how manages to escape the effects of usually a mass extinction in a type of refugium which remains relatively unchanged compared to the world around it. There are three arguments (three different takes of the Lazarus effect) going on at the moment about how to describe how these animals survive but I’m not going to dwell into that, but what I’m basically saying it has been found before but I personally don’t think pterosaur would still be alive but that doesn't mean 100% its not. (lol if anyones wondering I just did an assesment on the Lazarus effect! Coincidence eh  ) So in other words, somehow the Congo was unaffected by the KT extinction (if it happened, which I have my doubts regarding). Is that what I'm getting out of this? Not necessarily, sometimes with refugium they are located in only a tiny area but as the global climate / world begins to return these animals can either stay were they are in such a small area or venture out of this area back into the world. This could mean that perhaps the Congo was indeed effected and a small area nearby was unaffected and as these animals have slowly began to grow in numbers (you would expect so after 65mya) and are as such beginning to repopulate over the Congo from their place of origin. However this does not take into account that these animals could have evolved since then and changed perhaps into a new type of ptersour species. Though this begs another question that if they are alive why aren’t they leaving the Congo and going else where? The planet is more than acceptable for these creatures if they existed to leave and go somewhere else and not just stay in the one area. But yeah as I found in my assessment and debate about this in class anything could have happened and even today the clear definition of what a refugium actually is, how it was formed and they exsist are still large questions in the scientific world.
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:36 am |
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Kaynight wrote: Not necessarily, sometimes with refugium they are located in only a tiny area but as the global climate / world begins to return these animals can either stay were they are in such a small area or venture out of this area back into the world. This could mean that perhaps the Congo was indeed effected and a small area nearby was unaffected and as these animals have slowly began to grow in numbers (you would expect so after 65mya) and are as such beginning to repopulate over the Congo from their place of origin. However this does not take into account that these animals could have evolved since then and changed perhaps into a new type of ptersour species. Though this begs another question that if they are alive why aren’t they leaving the Congo and going else where? The planet is more than acceptable for these creatures if they existed to leave and go somewhere else and not just stay in the one area. But yeah as I found in my assessment and debate about this in class anything could have happened and even today the clear definition of what a refugium actually is, how it was formed and they exsist are still large questions in the scientific world. Meaning the Kongamato (I'll call it that on the grounds that we call the Okapi by its tribal name even though it's the same as an animal once thought to be long extinct) could have occasionally ventured outside the Congo, but is not doing so now. If I may deign to suggest a creationist theory for a moment (since creationism has already been mentioned), I may be able to explain that. It is notable that the Kongamato often attacks from trees, implying perhaps that it is a glider rather than a fully capable flapping flyer. Scientists have noted that before the time of the global flood which legends around the world (most famously the story of Noah, with second place going to the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh), the Earth's atmosphere would have perhaps been thicker (more water vapor). Also, stories suggest a thicker ozone layer back then, meaning the Earth would have been nearly all tropical. So, if one believes the flood tales and supposes that the Kongamato (along with its fellow saurian cryptids) were on the Ark, then once they got off they would have headed at once for friendly territory. If the Congo grew back fairly quickly, then the trees would have made an abundant food source for the dinosaurs and - more specifically to our topic - handy flight aids for the pterosaurs which would probably find themselves struggling to fly in the much-thinner atmosphere. And of course a tropical place like that is going to draw any reptile, especially when the rest of the world is comparatively as cold and desolate as Death Valley in the early morning.
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Pirate480
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:12 pm |
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kongmato  I believe in both this creature and the loch ness monster.There are numerous similar creatures like the loch ness such as the altamaha, and champ.There also an event in texas 1976 when some locals reported large flying reptiles,a massive pterosaur known as "Quezalcoatlus" similar to the kongmato,but a wingspan of 50 FT!There is also the giant shark Megalodon which is also rumored to still exist.I'm also aware of other mysterious creatures such as the Mokele-Mbembe.I'm not going to say all of them,only 2 notable african ones,first the Mngwa(means strange one in swahili). It is a very strange cat said to be more powerful then a full grown male lion and as stealthy as a leopard.The fur is dark grey with black stripes.the first mention of it was in 1150.It became of concern when in 1920,numerous mauled bodies started turning up with grey fur in their hands.None have ever even come close to capturing it. The second is my favorite of the 2,The Nandi bear(named afteer the nandi tribe that it terrorizes).they are about 9 fett tall,long sharp claws,spotted fur like a hyena,and a muscular build.The creature became notced when in 1927,captain William Hichens had an encounter when one destroyed his tent and killed his dog,despite he didn't see it he claimed that it's horrific howls"split the night'.Some think it might be a surviving group ofgiant lion sized hyenas that are thought to be extinct. I just believe that these type of creatures exist
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:27 pm |
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Joker wrote: kongmato  I believe in both this creature and the loch ness monster.There are numerous similar creatures like the loch ness such as the altamaha, and champ.There also an event in texas 1976 when some locals reported large flying reptiles,a massive pterosaur known as "Quezalcoatlus" similar to the kongmato,but a wingspan of 50 FT!There is also the giant shark Megalodon which is also rumored to still exist.I'm also aware of other mysterious creatures such as the Mokele-Mbembe.I'm not going to say all of them,only 2 notable african ones,first the Mngwa(means strange one in swahili). It is a very strange cat said to be more powerful then a full grown male lion and as stealthy as a leopard.The fur is dark grey with black stripes.the first mention of it was in 1150.It became of concern when in 1920,numerous mauled bodies started turning up with grey fur in their hands.None have ever even come close to capturing it. The second is my favorite of the 2,The Nandi bear(named afteer the nandi tribe that it terrorizes).they are about 9 fett tall,long sharp claws,spotted fur like a hyena,and a muscular build.The creature became notced when in 1927,captain William Hichens had an encounter when one destroyed his tent and killed his dog,despite he didn't see it he claimed that it's horrific howls"split the night'.Some think it might be a surviving group ofgiant lion sized hyenas that are thought to be extinct. I just believe that these type of creatures exist I read about the Mngwa and the Nandi Bear. The book I read suggested the Nandi Bear could be an animal called the calicothere. I don't recall it suggesting any connection between the calicothere and the hyena, but it's been quite awhile.
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Godzillawolf
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:29 pm |
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Kaynight wrote: I have two opinions on this, first being that personally I doubt there would be any alive now, however science can dictate otherwise. Anyone here heard of the Lazarus effect? It’s named after the biblical character who returned from the dead. Basically it’s a type of 'phoenix type" like resurrection of a species many years after it disappeared from the fossil record and was thus presumed extinct. It can classified as when a species some how manages to escape the effects of usually a mass extinction in a type of refugium which remains relatively unchanged compared to the world around it. There are three arguments (three different takes of the Lazarus effect) going on at the moment about how to describe how these animals survive but I’m not going to dwell into that, but what I’m basically saying it has been found before but I personally don’t think pterosaur would still be alive but that doesn't mean 100% its not. (lol if anyones wondering I just did an assesment on the Lazarus effect! Coincidence eh  ) So Kaynight you mean like a 'land that time forgot type thing'? It could be possible. I personally think its impossible that ALL dinosaurs were killed in the Mass Extinction event that occured, whatever that was. It makes no sense that every single dinosaur died out when other reptiles survived. I think the majoraty of large dinosaurs died out but some species are still out there, only haveing, as Kaynight said, been living in theses iscolated places, most of which are likely more like their original habitate, like the Congo which is supposedly home to more than one supposedly extinct dinosaurs.
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Kaynight
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:44 am |
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Godzillawolf wrote: Kaynight wrote: I have two opinions on this, first being that personally I doubt there would be any alive now, however science can dictate otherwise. Anyone here heard of the Lazarus effect? It’s named after the biblical character who returned from the dead. Basically it’s a type of 'phoenix type" like resurrection of a species many years after it disappeared from the fossil record and was thus presumed extinct. It can classified as when a species some how manages to escape the effects of usually a mass extinction in a type of refugium which remains relatively unchanged compared to the world around it. There are three arguments (three different takes of the Lazarus effect) going on at the moment about how to describe how these animals survive but I’m not going to dwell into that, but what I’m basically saying it has been found before but I personally don’t think pterosaur would still be alive but that doesn't mean 100% its not. (lol if anyones wondering I just did an assesment on the Lazarus effect! Coincidence eh  ) So Kaynight you mean like a 'land that time forgot type thing'? It could be possible. I personally think its impossible that ALL dinosaurs were killed in the Mass Extinction event that occured, whatever that was. It makes no sense that every single dinosaur died out when other reptiles survived. I think the majoraty of large dinosaurs died out but some species are still out there, only haveing, as Kaynight said, been living in theses iscolated places, most of which are likely more like their original habitate, like the Congo which is supposedly home to more than one supposedly extinct dinosaurs. You could say that but I guess I would compare it more to the little haven in the movie Dinosaur that they found at the end and could assume that because it was surrounded by hills it could have provided some sanctuary, but none the less they’re both only movies. The KT mass extinction is actually thought to have not been caused by one single thing, some statistic’s show that the reign of the dinosaurs was already in decline before the meteorite impact occurred at Mexico and that was just the killing blow; also just to remind this extinction effected both land and sea creatures. I think that there was much volcanism around the time of this extinction which would have caused higher temperatures more CO2 etc: But mass extinctions don’t happen over a period of a day or even a year they usually occur over a couple million years, so these refugia would have had to survive through a million years at least of ‘abnormal’ conditions or being isolated in one area, and with this some may have died in these area once food / water ran out, so the possibility of refugia surviving to today is still slim, not to mention past glaciations and other global events that have occurred since then. However coming back to the pterosaurs we must not forget that during the cretaceous these creatures were in direct competition with early birds and were already in decline and since birds survived the extinction it could also be possible that sheer competition between these creatures may have also been a killing blow of any pterosaurs that did exist in these refugia.
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Godzillawolf
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:11 am |
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Kaynight wrote: Godzillawolf wrote: Kaynight wrote: I have two opinions on this, first being that personally I doubt there would be any alive now, however science can dictate otherwise. Anyone here heard of the Lazarus effect? It’s named after the biblical character who returned from the dead. Basically it’s a type of 'phoenix type" like resurrection of a species many years after it disappeared from the fossil record and was thus presumed extinct. It can classified as when a species some how manages to escape the effects of usually a mass extinction in a type of refugium which remains relatively unchanged compared to the world around it. There are three arguments (three different takes of the Lazarus effect) going on at the moment about how to describe how these animals survive but I’m not going to dwell into that, but what I’m basically saying it has been found before but I personally don’t think pterosaur would still be alive but that doesn't mean 100% its not. (lol if anyones wondering I just did an assesment on the Lazarus effect! Coincidence eh  ) So Kaynight you mean like a 'land that time forgot type thing'? It could be possible. I personally think its impossible that ALL dinosaurs were killed in the Mass Extinction event that occured, whatever that was. It makes no sense that every single dinosaur died out when other reptiles survived. I think the majoraty of large dinosaurs died out but some species are still out there, only haveing, as Kaynight said, been living in theses iscolated places, most of which are likely more like their original habitate, like the Congo which is supposedly home to more than one supposedly extinct dinosaurs. You could say that but I guess I would compare it more to the little haven in the movie Dinosaur that they found at the end and could assume that because it was surrounded by hills it could have provided some sanctuary, but none the less they’re both only movies. The KT mass extinction is actually thought to have not been caused by one single thing, some statistic’s show that the reign of the dinosaurs was already in decline before the meteorite impact occurred at Mexico and that was just the killing blow; also just to remind this extinction effected both land and sea creatures. I think that there was much volcanism around the time of this extinction which would have caused higher temperatures more CO2 etc: But mass extinctions don’t happen over a period of a day or even a year they usually occur over a couple million years, so these refugia would have had to survive through a million years at least of ‘abnormal’ conditions or being isolated in one area, and with this some may have died in these area once food / water ran out, so the possibility of refugia surviving to today is still slim, not to mention past glaciations and other global events that have occurred since then. However coming back to the pterosaurs we must not forget that during the cretaceous these creatures were in direct competition with early birds and were already in decline and since birds survived the extinction it could also be possible that sheer competition between these creatures may have also been a killing blow of any pterosaurs that did exist in these refugia. True but how else can we explain the natives of the Congo saying Kongmato matches picture of pterodactyls without ever seeing them? And that's if the KT Mass Extinction actuelly happened, there is some proof but we've never seen such an impact so we don't know what it did. If you look at the Congo, it fits an unchanged world, its pretty much primordial in many ways and a perfect envirnment for theses creatures to have survived.
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Pirate480
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:44 pm |
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To avoid confusing about similarities between the nandi bear an calicothere,here is a drawing of a calicothere  and the Nandi Bear  You can see the similar in shape right?
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Jake Razor
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Post subject: Re: Living pterodactyls Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:32 pm |
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Kaynight wrote: You could say that but I guess I would compare it more to the little haven in the movie Dinosaur that they found at the end and could assume that because it was surrounded by hills it could have provided some sanctuary, but none the less they’re both only movies. The KT mass extinction is actually thought to have not been caused by one single thing, some statistic’s show that the reign of the dinosaurs was already in decline before the meteorite impact occurred at Mexico and that was just the killing blow; also just to remind this extinction effected both land and sea creatures. I think that there was much volcanism around the time of this extinction which would have caused higher temperatures more CO2 etc: But mass extinctions don’t happen over a period of a day or even a year they usually occur over a couple million years, so these refugia would have had to survive through a million years at least of ‘abnormal’ conditions or being isolated in one area, and with this some may have died in these area once food / water ran out, so the possibility of refugia surviving to today is still slim, not to mention past glaciations and other global events that have occurred since then. However coming back to the pterosaurs we must not forget that during the cretaceous these creatures were in direct competition with early birds and were already in decline and since birds survived the extinction it could also be possible that sheer competition between these creatures may have also been a killing blow of any pterosaurs that did exist in these refugia. The "Great Valley" Idea is an interesting one, but in the event of a mass extinction (by asteroid or a Noahic flood), the Congo would be ill-suited as a shelter. More likely, the animals could have migrated there after surviving by some other means. Joker --> Thanks.
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